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Megasquirt ECUs or cheaper: what does it takes to conv a OEM FI to aftermarket ? #5194343 08/23/19 04:26 AM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 614
Superflan Offline OP
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Hi,

I'm buying a GW250 Suzuki bike which fried its second ECU (I think output driver or just bad solder joint).

This purchase is more to have something unusual to play with, sometimes I feel the need to learn the hard way (opposite to take the path of least resistance.

Thus, I'd like to convert to some Megasquirt ECU and learn to install, map, have fun with 2step or flame maps, etc.

Let me know about your experiences with aftermarket ECUs in general, on vehicles that already runs EFI and electronic ignition systems.


‘01 Peugeot Partner 1.9 D, 15W40 E7, 273000 Km, running on WVO
Wife's '19 Suzuki Vitara 1.0 Boosterjet (TGDI), 5W40 A3/B4, 23000 Km
Backup ‘01 Toyota RAV4 3-dr 2.0 VVTi, 5W40 A3/B4, 170000 Km
Re: Megasquirt ECUs or cheaper: what does it takes to conv a OEM FI to aftermarket ? [Re: Superflan] #5194417 08/23/19 06:40 AM
Joined: Jan 2015
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ragtoplvr Offline
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There is a place to find maps, there may be one close enough to use.
Be sure and log the map on one of the map archive sites so the next person has it easier.

Re: Megasquirt ECUs or cheaper: what does it takes to conv a OEM FI to aftermarket ? [Re: Superflan] #5194439 08/23/19 07:14 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 294
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MichiganMadMan Offline
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Do you know how the fuel injection setup is done today? Unlike the automotive world where I pretty much know what to expect, motorcycles are all over the place as far as technology. Some have more of a "throttle body" setup where the injector and throttle blade live together in what looks like a carburetor from the outside. Others have individual throttle bodies but the injectors are integrated into the cylinder head. My Honda NC700 has a single throttle body with two injectors.

I've done quite a few MegaSquirt EFI conversions. The most memorable was a Toyota 22R engine from the mid-80's with a diabolical carburetor that nobody could get to run right. Replaced it with a GM TBI setup from an S-10 pickup and it runs like a top. The hardest thing is getting the ECU to understand the inputs from the sensors that you have. On that particular version, the ignition system was some odd arrangement that the ECU didn't like at all. Ended up having to use the coil negative to run the system, which isn't my favorite.

If you really want to do it, I'd recommend you get a repair manual that will explain how each of the sensors works in detail. This will help you a lot getting everything configured so it reads properly. Once you get it to run at all, you are 80% there....

You might want to check out the MicroSquirt system. It's about perfect for what you want to do here. The old-school MegaSquirt are not weather tight, are a bit bulky, and need to live inside which is tough on a motorcycle.

Once you get it running, be ready for some rough rides. It's not uncommon to have things like the accelerator pump function way off so it will either bog from too much fuel and send you over the handlebars or backfire badly because of too little fuel and leave your ears ringing. In a car these things are not as serious and occasionally funny but motorcycles are unforgiving. Wideband 02 sensors and data logs are your friends here.

Let us know what you decide.


2015 Chevrolet Impala
2011 E-350
2008 Subaru Impreza STI
2012 Honda NC700X
2011 Jonsered 2188 Chainsaw-The Judge.
Re: Megasquirt ECUs or cheaper: what does it takes to conv a OEM FI to aftermarket ? [Re: MichiganMadMan] #5194497 08/23/19 08:51 AM
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Posts: 614
Superflan Offline OP
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Originally Posted by ragtoplvr
There is a place to find maps, there may be one close enough to use.
Be sure and log the map on one of the map archive sites so the next person has it easier.

Of course I'll be sure to share progress.

Originally Posted by MichiganMadMan
Do you know how the fuel injection setup is done today?

I've done quite a few MegaSquirt EFI conversions.

If you really want to do it, I'd recommend you get a repair manual that will explain how each of the sensors works in detail. This will help you a lot getting everything configured so it reads properly. Once you get it to run at all, you are 80% there....

Let us know what you decide.


I'm glad you're here!

I already explored the bike's electrical a few times. The official service manual is available all over the Internet, and here's the combined information I can recall:

Electronic transistorised ignition
Three phase AC generator
Crankshaft position sensor
Intake air pressure sensors (one per cylinder runner)
Intake air temperature sensor
Coolant temperature sensor
Heated oxygen sensor (exhaust)
Throttle position sensor
Clutch lever sensor (I'd like to set a launch control map, for learning purposes)
Gear indicator sensor (map by gear...)
2 ignition coils with one common wire between the two
Idle speed control valve
Cooling fan relay (rewire needed or ECU control needed)
Fuel pump relay
Air injection solenoid (can use for some fun things, like enhanced pops and bangs?)

Would I need a working OEM ECU to analyze what goes through when running or can I go from scratch?

I'd like to go for a repairable ECU. The OEM ECUs are potted and I'm afraid I can't replace an IC driver in them, Same for microsquirt

Last edited by Superflan; 08/23/19 08:55 AM.

‘01 Peugeot Partner 1.9 D, 15W40 E7, 273000 Km, running on WVO
Wife's '19 Suzuki Vitara 1.0 Boosterjet (TGDI), 5W40 A3/B4, 23000 Km
Backup ‘01 Toyota RAV4 3-dr 2.0 VVTi, 5W40 A3/B4, 170000 Km
Re: Megasquirt ECUs or cheaper: what does it takes to conv a OEM FI to aftermarket ? [Re: Superflan] #5196966 08/26/19 08:50 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 294
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MichiganMadMan Offline
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It would be really nice to have a running bike to get all the signals from, especially the ignition system. It can be a rising-edge or falling edge, have different number of teeth in the tone wheel, etc. It's always nice to have an oscilloscope to grab this info on a running system before removing it. You mention ignition coils "with one common wire between the two", do you know what this is? Having a wiring diagram from the service manual would certainly help figuring out how things are configured.

Some items that jumped out at me:

Intake air pressure sensors: You mentioned that there is one per cylinder. I've seen that but not worked on it before. My Hayabusa had four pressure taps (one for each cylinder) that went to a single sensor, which sort of "averaged" the manifold pressure for you. With individual sensors, a generic system like MegaSquirt is going to have a hard time determining what manifold pressure really is (it's all over the place on an individual-runner basis). You'd have to either put a restriction in with a large volume behind it (mechanical filter) or put the manifold pressure filtering WAY up on the electronic side. They both have unpleasant side effects in system reaction time. Factory ecu's for applications like this usually have a "windowing" strategy where they sample manifold pressure only during a certain crank angle or time. The other option (not my favorite by any stretch) is run an "Alpha-n" system with throttle position and engine speed as inputs and use the pressure sensor to correct for barometric pressure. You typically have to resort to this when you have a car engine with a huge camshaft that gives poor pressure signals at idle. It's sensitive to so many things, which is why I don't like using it unless I have to.
Do you have mechanical throttle on this or is that electronic as well?

Gear indicator sensor: I don't recall MegaSquirt having the ability to use different ignition or fuel maps based on a gear, only the clutch switch being true or false. Not sure if it's just that my knowledge is slightly out of date or not.

Cooling fan relay: Probably what I would consider the "biggest miss" from the systems I worked on. There wasn't a way to trigger cooling fans using the MegaSquirt ECU. At least when I was building them. I used a series of relays to get the fan to work when the A/C was on, low speed when the coolant was warm and high speed when it was hot. It will be more simple in your case, with no A/C and just a fan on/off setup. I'd just use a temperature switch on the output of the radiator with a temperature you feel comfortable with (110C or something) connected to the ground of the fan. Do yourself a favor and put a diode going backwards from after the relay to the B+ side so when the relay lets go, the voltage spike goes back into the overall system instead of frying the relay. You can add a manual switch on the ground wire as well for an over-ride.

Air injection solenoid: Same thing as the cooling fan. Not sure the system has the ability to do anything with these.

I remember talk of a "General Purpose Input/Output" or GPIO daughter board around the time life got in the way of my projects. It looked a bit "Russian farmer" for me. You had to remove one cover and it sort of stuck out into the wind. Maybe they've enhanced that since I was last working on things. It's possible they've written some cooling fan and air injection features into the code by now.

You must have a lot more spare time than I do, this is going to be quite a project.


2015 Chevrolet Impala
2011 E-350
2008 Subaru Impreza STI
2012 Honda NC700X
2011 Jonsered 2188 Chainsaw-The Judge.
Re: Megasquirt ECUs or cheaper: what does it takes to conv a OEM FI to aftermarket ? [Re: MichiganMadMan] #5228041 10/02/19 12:50 AM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 614
Superflan Offline OP
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@MichiganMadMan: thanks for your aupport. For some unknown reason I didn't notice you replied with so much advice.
Originally Posted by MichiganMadMan
It would be really nice to have a running bike to get all the signals from, especially the ignition system. It can be a rising-edge or falling edge, have different number of teeth in the tone wheel, etc. It's always nice to have an oscilloscope to grab this info on a running system before removing it.

I would then buy or build one of those PC Interface for software oscilloscope, anything against this?
Quote
You mention ignition coils "with one common wire between the two", do you know what this is? Having a wiring diagram from the service manual would certainly help figuring out how things are configured..

Yes, the ground is common between the 2 ignition coils, and the 2 other wires goes directly to the ECU (Ignition output #1 and #2)


‘01 Peugeot Partner 1.9 D, 15W40 E7, 273000 Km, running on WVO
Wife's '19 Suzuki Vitara 1.0 Boosterjet (TGDI), 5W40 A3/B4, 23000 Km
Backup ‘01 Toyota RAV4 3-dr 2.0 VVTi, 5W40 A3/B4, 170000 Km
Re: Megasquirt ECUs or cheaper: what does it takes to conv a OEM FI to aftermarket ? [Re: Superflan] #5228042 10/02/19 12:50 AM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 614
Superflan Offline OP
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Posts: 614
Quote

Some items that jumped out at me:
Intake air pressure sensors: You mentioned that there is one per cylinder. I've seen that but not worked on it before. My Hayabusa had four pressure taps (one for each cylinder) that went to a single sensor, which sort of "averaged" the manifold pressure for you. With individual sensors, a generic system like MegaSquirt is going to have a hard time determining what manifold pressure really is (it's all over the place on an individual-runner basis). You'd have to either put a restriction in with a large volume behind it (mechanical filter) or put the manifold pressure filtering WAY up on the electronic side. They both have unpleasant side effects in system reaction time. Factory ecu's for applications like this usually have a "windowing" strategy where they sample manifold pressure only during a certain crank angle or time. The other option (not my favorite by any stretch) is run an "Alpha-n" system with throttle position and engine speed as inputs and use the pressure sensor to correct for barometric pressure. You typically have to resort to this when you have a car engine with a huge camshaft that gives poor pressure signals at idle. It's sensitive to so many things, which is why I don't like using it unless I have to..

Do you then think than for a start in doing mappings, I should ignore those sensors and rely on an open air pressure sensor ?


‘01 Peugeot Partner 1.9 D, 15W40 E7, 273000 Km, running on WVO
Wife's '19 Suzuki Vitara 1.0 Boosterjet (TGDI), 5W40 A3/B4, 23000 Km
Backup ‘01 Toyota RAV4 3-dr 2.0 VVTi, 5W40 A3/B4, 170000 Km
Re: Megasquirt ECUs or cheaper: what does it takes to conv a OEM FI to aftermarket ? [Re: Superflan] #5228043 10/02/19 12:52 AM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 614
Superflan Offline OP
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Posts: 614
Quote

Do you have mechanical throttle on this or is that electronic as well?.

Mechanical and a throttle position sensor, and an electronic fast idle circuit for cold starts
Quote

Gear indicator sensor: I don't recall MegaSquirt having the ability to use different ignition or fuel maps based on a gear, only the clutch switch being true or false. Not sure if it's just that my knowledge is slightly out of date or not..

I can live without it
Quote
Cooling fan relay: Probably what I would consider the "biggest miss" from the systems I worked on. There wasn't a way to trigger cooling fans using the MegaSquirt ECU. At least when I was building them. I used a series of relays to get the fan to work when the A/C was on, low speed when the coolant was warm and high speed when it was hot. It will be more simple in your case, with no A/C and just a fan on/off setup. I'd just use a temperature switch on the output of the radiator with a temperature you feel comfortable with (110C or something) connected to the ground of the fan. Do yourself a favor and put a diode going backwards from after the relay to the B+ side so when the relay lets go, the voltage spike goes back into the overall system instead of frying the relay. You can add a manual switch on the ground wire as well for an over-ride..

Thanks for keeping it simple


‘01 Peugeot Partner 1.9 D, 15W40 E7, 273000 Km, running on WVO
Wife's '19 Suzuki Vitara 1.0 Boosterjet (TGDI), 5W40 A3/B4, 23000 Km
Backup ‘01 Toyota RAV4 3-dr 2.0 VVTi, 5W40 A3/B4, 170000 Km
Re: Megasquirt ECUs or cheaper: what does it takes to conv a OEM FI to aftermarket ? [Re: Superflan] #5228044 10/02/19 12:53 AM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 614
Superflan Offline OP
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Quote
Air injection solenoid: Same thing as the cooling fan. Not sure the system has the ability to do anything with these..

Can live without too
Quote
I remember talk of a "General Purpose Input/Output" or GPIO daughter board around the time life got in the way of my projects. It looked a bit "Russian farmer" for me. You had to remove one cover and it sort of stuck out into the wind. Maybe they've enhanced that since I was last working on things. It's possible they've written some cooling fan and air injection features into the code by now..

I'll try to update on those topics and repost here
Quote
You must have a lot more spare time than I do, this is going to be quite a project.

This might be really postponed until February, this said I don't have any free time. But I need to learn something, build, make it work, customize, it's one of the things I do to stay sane smile


‘01 Peugeot Partner 1.9 D, 15W40 E7, 273000 Km, running on WVO
Wife's '19 Suzuki Vitara 1.0 Boosterjet (TGDI), 5W40 A3/B4, 23000 Km
Backup ‘01 Toyota RAV4 3-dr 2.0 VVTi, 5W40 A3/B4, 170000 Km
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