Car salesmen need to go....

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Originally Posted by SeaJay
Originally Posted by Ignatius


The most typical mindsets of these kinds of people are:

"I am entitled to my demands"
"I am the person who is going to get the 'best deal possible'"
"I am not going to let you 'rip me off'"



Well said!

Folks want to be able to brag that they are too smart to let any old car salesman get the better of them. Then they offer all of their car buying tips to their friends and explaining to them that they were ripped off because they aren't as smart as they are. They will finish off by saying that they got it cheaper than anyone else. Or at least the salesman played the part and let them believe that.


But this is mostly due to he fact that prices are negotiable. Buyers go into thinking every car salesman simply wants to try and screw them over and there are enough tales out there to support this assumption. Why shouldn't a buyer try their best to get the best price if the salesman is going to try and do their best to sell the car for the highest price?

Personally, I think the key is I try and find a salesman who wants to be fair and in kind I want to be fair as well. Again, I don't expect anyone to take a loss on a sale but in 2019 it is not hard to know what a good price is for car. I send an email stating what I'm looking for and what I think is fair as far as price to a couple dealerships. Some will come back with a ridiculous price and some come back within a couple hundred of what I wanted to pay. Sometimes, they come in under what I wanted to pay. Then it comes down to availability of the sales person and the specific vehicle I'm looking for. My last 5 or 6 purchases have been low key, quick and easy. Basically, I just show up to do a walk around on the vehicle and sign papers. I haven't even had to deal with shenanigans in the finances office - I've just taken my 0.9% and signed on the dotted line.

I've had the worst experiences at Toyota and Honda dealerships - literally a showroom full of sharks. No thanks....I just walk. I crossed the 4-Runner off my list just because I can't find a Toyota dealership in the area who doesn't have sale people who are the cliche sales people. Lexus was by far the easiest I've dealt with for a sale.
 
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I recently attended a Drive and Compare event, which was offered by one car group which owns several different dealerships. These were the Rav4's and CRV type cars. They even borrowed a couple of cars from other car dealerships which they did not carry. You had to sign up for the event, but it did give you an opportunity to look at, sit in and ask questions about the cars.. You were then allowed to take which ever one you wanted for a test drive along with a sales person. All of the salesmen/ saleswomen had a good base knowledge of the car you were test driving. Most of the sales reps were layed back and wanted to give you a good experience while there were a couple who were a little on the high pressure side. So in conclusion I was able to determine which ones I liked the best which in some cases was the complete opposite from what I had read about on the internet from the so called auto experts. So you need to drive and decide for yourself. About a week after the event I got a short email from them thanking me for attending and that has been it, so it was an enjoyable experience. Now I have to decide which car to buy whether from them or someone else.
 
My center expected the entire sales staff to possess a solid knowledge of the vehicles we were selling. Some of us specialized in certain areas. In my case I dealt primarily with EVs, PHEVs, and M Performance and M cars.
 
Originally Posted by PWMDMD



I have a friend who is one of the #1 Subaru car salesmen in the US. His strategy is volume over the Internet. He does almost all of his negotiating over the internet because he can "work with" multiple people at one time. He also gives them really good first offers because all he cares about is volume (and getting the dealer holdback) and wasting as little time as possible per sale. He makes a GREAT living doing it this way with AWESOME reviews (people are shocked his initial price is lower than their final goal) while his colleagues walk the floor making many fewer sales trying to squeeze every last penny out of customers.


It's interesting how some automakers allow dealers to conduct volume sales on vehicles but not other products associated with the vehicle. For example a few years ago a BMW dealer in LA was offering a fantastic price on extended warranties and all you had to do was mail him your key so he could get a key-read for the mileage and do the paperwork. This dealer allegedly did so much business that other dealers complained and per BMWNA it became policy that in order to write an extended warranty the vehicle had to be brought to the dealership. I was PO'd but whatever. So instead of BMWNA making some money from me on an extended warranty, they made $0.
 
Originally Posted by Ignatius


I begrudge not a single person who is committed to doing business with me but if you are not committed and want to play games that waste your time and mine, I would just as soon see you leave and never have anything to do with you again.


I agree a buyer should come to the dealership serious and prepared (and qualified) to buy that day.

Here's what we did on both the F150 and the GMC recently purchased (see sig below). Lot of internet research, use of autotrader and cars.com to get a grasp on what models equipped as we wanted were listing at in our region and on general trade-in values of our cars. We were not interested in long distance fly and buys, and preferred to stay regional. Then use of the various pricing sites, kbb, truecar. Made internet inquiries on in-stock ones interested in to get things going. What we wanted equipment wise weren't mainstream and were lower trims within both model lines, sle trim for the gmc and 4x4 xl stx pkg for the f150, so some limitation on inventory. Once we found the ones we wanted and had the common pricing in mind, gathered title to trade-in vehicle, unlocked our credit reports (always locked for security), grabbed checkbook and went to the dealer that had the ones we wanted, driving there in the trade-in. We went onto the lot with the mindset that if the test drive was good and final price right trigger would be pulled on purchase. We did ok I think. $23,200 + TTL on the terrain sle 2wd msrp 29,900 and $32,364 + TTL on the f150 msrp 42,395. kbb excel condition trade value on both trades.

That may not have been the best way but I feel like the dealership knew we weren't there only for tire kicking and hem hawing.

Had we been willing to travel far for each one we might have done maybe $300 or 400 better on the gmc and maybe $500 - 750 better on the f150 at that point in time (discounts and factory incentives change over time) but not worth the hassle and time off work.
 
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Yea- kind of the like the non sense that happens in the finance office. Talk about pushing products that are useless-sounds like "bad faith" to me.

I had a line item for $600.00 show up on the contract in the finance office once-without my consent. It was for "Key FOB" insurance.

Luckily the wife (ex-school teacher) caught it.


FWIW that is about the going rate to replace a keyless entry keyfob so the price was not bad.

Speaking of F&I, some of the most pathetic customers I have had to deal with would beg and plead with me over the price, payments, etc giving me the old, "we just can't afford more than $XXX.xx per month!" It's always some drama.

Then those same people will go back and drop multiple thousands of dollars in F&I and bump their payment waaaay up. If you wonder why you can't trust car sales people in is in large part because they have to deal with nonsense like this constantly and it leads them to not be able to trust customers.

Originally Posted by PWMDMD
I don't think sales people need to go but I do think prices need to be fixed. The price on the car is the price on car no matter where you go and the sales person's job is simply to show you the car, answer questions and get you to sign on the dotted line.

This would force sales people to focus on volume and experience and not trying to squeeze every last penny out of you.

Many buyers go into a purchase knowing exactly what others have paid for the same car and the process of sales people trying to take advantage of you when you've clearly done you homework is just disheartening. I don't even speak to someone in person until I've already established over email that they are not creeps and they are in the ballpark for what I want to pay. I don't expect dealerships to take a loss on the sale but I also don't need some [censored] trying to squeeze me for $3K above MSRP when I know the rest of America is paying $3K under MSRP.


Fixed pricing on new cars doesn't have a good track record and you may not see the contradiction in what you are saying. You can do all the research you want on who bought what from where but there are so many variables that go into every single car deal that no matter what the circumstances are going to be unique for every customer. This is an attitude of entitlement like I spoke about earlier. It doesn't make sense to talk about fixed pricing in one sentence and then how you want to be the person getting some better deal in the next.

Originally Posted by PWMDMD
I have a friend who is one of the #1 Subaru car salesmen in the US. His strategy is volume over the Internet. He does almost all of his negotiating over the internet because he can "work with" multiple people at one time. He also gives them really good first offers because all he cares about is volume (and getting the dealer holdback) and wasting as little time as possible per sale. He makes a GREAT living doing it this way with AWESOME reviews (people are shocked his initial price is lower than their final goal) while his colleagues walk the floor making many fewer sales trying to squeeze every last penny out of customers.


If that is what works for them that's good for them. The most successful person I have known in the car business hand writes notes with his wife and sends them out to every customer for things like birthdays, anniversaries, graduations, etc. That guy has not sold less than 50 vehicles per month for years, he has his own personal secretary and works by referral appointments only. In good months he does insane business, the last time I saw him his commuter car was a new Viper.
 
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Okay, but no Subaru dealership would allow this with vehicles that were volume limited, like the made in Japan Forester but would allow it all day long on vehicles readily available, like the made in Indiana Legacy sedan or its wagon version, the Outback.
Too much money to be made on a Forester.
A salesman can only do what his masters allow, so obviously the cheapo approach was in line with what the dealer principle wanted as his operating strategy.
 
Originally Posted by fdcg27
Okay, but no Subaru dealership would allow this with vehicles that were volume limited, like the made in Japan Forester but would allow it all day long on vehicles readily available, like the made in Indiana Legacy sedan or its wagon version, the Outback.
Too much money to be made on a Forester.
A salesman can only do what his masters allow, so obviously the cheapo approach was in line with what the dealer principle wanted as his operating strategy.


Guess you havent heard of Heuberger or Ramsey. Dealers complained, now if you buy Subaru out of market extra 500 charge.

Its fun working with dealers out to move vehicles like PWMDMD said you can literally can be done shopping in a couple of emails.
 
Originally Posted by fdcg27
Okay, but no Subaru dealership would allow this with vehicles that were volume limited, like the made in Japan Forester but would allow it all day long on vehicles readily available, like the made in Indiana Legacy sedan or its wagon version, the Outback.
Too much money to be made on a Forester.
A salesman can only do what his masters allow, so obviously the cheapo approach was in line with what the dealer principle wanted as his operating strategy.


This is not my experience working for two of the top Subaru dealerships in the country that were each in two separate geographic regions, our regional competitors were all doing the same thing and many of them were among the top in the US as well.

I have heard people say things like that about Subaru vehicles produced in Japan but anyone in dealership management worth their salt knows that a vehicle sold is a vehicle sold. To me a WRX or a Forester is just another product and there is nothing special about them. And FYI, the best money you can make is ALWAYS on an Outback. Maybe an Ascent or two that I have sold has been in that same range but I can assure you that the Forester is at least one tier below in profitability.
 
Originally Posted by buster
They are useless. The entire car buying process is a joke. Cars should be a set price and the only variable at play should be the financing rate due to different credit scores. It's 2019 and we have the internet, not encyclopedia Britannica. I've never met a car salesman that knew more than I did going in to buy a car, and I'm not saying that in an arrogant manner. Point is, the information is available. They serve no purpose but to harass and act like intermediary dope between you and the overweight finance guy. I don't need someone to tell me the car has 4 wheels and a rear view mirror.


Never heard of Saturn and Scion? That business model didn't quite work
 
Originally Posted by bdcardinal
Now the scummy sales managers and "consultants" who come in and pound into the new hires heads to "tell the customer what they need, don't listen to what they want" need to be taken out of the gene pool.

Yes. I worked at a Honda dealer that was full of those types.

If I ever buy a new car, I'll use the Costco or credit union programs to bypass the sales people - sure I'll need to deal with F&I and the GSM in the tower but I won't be dealing with the tactics I've seen from the worst.
 
Originally Posted by Ignatius


Fixed pricing on new cars doesn't have a good track record and you may not see the contradiction in what you are saying. You can do all the research you want on who bought what from where but there are so many variables that go into every single car deal that no matter what the circumstances are going to be unique for every customer. This is an attitude of entitlement like I spoke about earlier. It doesn't make sense to talk about fixed pricing in one sentence and then how you want to be the person getting some better deal in the next.



It's not at all entitlement. I only want the best deal now because I know it's negotiable and if someone else gets a good deal then I want a good deal too. If I knew EVERYONE paid the same price then I'd expect to pay the same price too.

How much of the fixed pricing failure was due to the fact that Saturn and Scion sucked to begin with and both were odd little misfit divisions of huge auto manufactures? I don't know that answer but if Chevy or Toyota went fixed pricing I think it could go differently than it did for little Saturn and Scion.
 
Originally Posted by nthach
Originally Posted by bdcardinal
Now the scummy sales managers and "consultants" who come in and pound into the new hires heads to "tell the customer what they need, don't listen to what they want" need to be taken out of the gene pool.

Yes. I worked at a Honda dealer that was full of those types.

If I ever buy a new car, I'll use the Costco or credit union programs to bypass the sales people - sure I'll need to deal with F&I and the GSM in the tower but I won't be dealing with the tactics I've seen from the worst.


The greatest thing about living in a major metro area is there are no less than 10 Honda dealerships (or any other manufacture) in the area and it's well known to anyone who wants to know which dealerships to avoid. Many are just full of sharks but there are some with quality sales people - these places tend to have the same owners and so it's clear sales people behave how management expects them to behave.
 
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Originally Posted by Ignatius
Originally Posted by fdcg27
Okay, but no Subaru dealership would allow this with vehicles that were volume limited, like the made in Japan Forester but would allow it all day long on vehicles readily available, like the made in Indiana Legacy sedan or its wagon version, the Outback.
Too much money to be made on a Forester.
A salesman can only do what his masters allow, so obviously the cheapo approach was in line with what the dealer principle wanted as his operating strategy.


This is not my experience working for two of the top Subaru dealerships in the country that were each in two separate geographic regions, our regional competitors were all doing the same thing and many of them were among the top in the US as well.

I have heard people say things like that about Subaru vehicles produced in Japan but anyone in dealership management worth their salt knows that a vehicle sold is a vehicle sold. To me a WRX or a Forester is just another product and there is nothing special about them. And FYI, the best money you can make is ALWAYS on an Outback. Maybe an Ascent or two that I have sold has been in that same range but I can assure you that the Forester is at least one tier below in profitability.


My friend stated he got first dibs on volume-limited cars like the STX compared to other area dealerships who didn't move as many units. He would then use the volume-limited cars to trade to other dealerships and a lot of his business was with other area dealerships trying to obtain specific cars. According to him he almost acted like a local distributor to other dealerships. I don't know the exact details but he claimed he was all about volume, doing most of the work and negotiating over the internet and minimizing face time spent per customer. I bough a 2010 Legacy from him and after doing my research and determining what I thought was a good price his first initial offer was several thousand less than what I thought was fair. I emailed with him for one day and went to sign for and pickup the car the next day. Total time spent emailing, signing, inspecting....maybe 90 mins...probably less. I had already tested the car a few months before at another dealership whose best offer was several thousand more.

I should say this was about 10 years ago....he now owns a car buying service where you pay him a fee and he finds the exact car you want at what he claims is the best price - again he leverages volume purchases for multiple buyers. I've never used him but friends have and they claim he obtained cars for thousands less than they were able to negotiate. They had to wait a month or two...I think he waits for a few people who want to buy Honda and then hits up his dealer network for Hondas negotiating not one but five or six cars in one deal.
 
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Originally Posted by PWMDMD
I should say this was about 10 years ago....he now owns a car buying service where you pay him a fee and he finds the exact car you want at what he claims is the best price


I have read through your other posts and you are hung up on what many people get hung up on, chasing the mythical "best price." There is no definition for what the "best price" constitutes and yet most people I have worked with who want to speak in such terms prefer to use it as a cudgel when they themselves are usually ignorant as to what they would like to accomplish, aside from wasting time.

You even said your guru car salesman can only make a claim and how do you really know if his claim is accurate? I'll tell you! There is no way to know
56.gif


What the "best price" is is what you will commit to pay. I could talk up 100 Chevy about buying a new Corvette and demand that they either sell me a new Corvette for 50% off or else I will not buy the car. Let's say ONE dealership agrees to sell me a new Corvette for 50% off and despite that being the "best price" I still refuse to commit to purchase, well then the price doesn't matter.
 
Originally Posted by Ignatius
Originally Posted by PWMDMD
I should say this was about 10 years ago....he now owns a car buying service where you pay him a fee and he finds the exact car you want at what he claims is the best price


I have read through your other posts and you are hung up on what many people get hung up on, chasing the mythical "best price." There is no definition for what the "best price" constitutes and yet most people I have worked with who want to speak in such terms prefer to use it as a cudgel when they themselves are usually ignorant as to what they would like to accomplish, aside from wasting time.

You even said your guru car salesman can only make a claim and how do you really know if his claim is accurate? I'll tell you! There is no way to know
56.gif


What the "best price" is is what you will commit to pay. I could talk up 100 Chevy about buying a new Corvette and demand that they either sell me a new Corvette for 50% off or else I will not buy the car. Let's say ONE dealership agrees to sell me a new Corvette for 50% off and despite that being the "best price" I still refuse to commit to purchase, well then the price doesn't matter.


With the internet this stuff is not quantum mechanics. You can argue the semantics of what "best price means" all you want but the fact is I can go to any car forum and in the sticky section there is a "Price Paid" thread. I can then look at numerous websites for prices paid. The net result is living in the greater Boston area I know exactly what people are paying for each model and trim. I'm a really easy customer to get a deal done. I have impeccable credit, do my homework before hand and I don't expect to pillage in the process of getting the deal done. I even give you the courtesy of letting you know my ballpark before you ever waste any time meeting me.

My last purchase was easy - emailed three Lexus dealers with what I wanted. They emailed me back closest car they had in stock with the price. One sent MSRP (yeah right) and the other two were a within a couple hundred of each other in the 12-13% off MRSP. I emailed the closest one the quote given by there further one and he immediately said he'd beat that price by another $500....TTL were all the same. No stupid VIN etching or financing office shenanigans either. I took the 0.9% financing and signed and done. Could I get a better price...maybe...was I trying to pillage? Nope...seemed like a fair deal. All that said, I'd be a fool to not do my homework and pit each dealership against one another. Imagine all the people who would've accepted MSRP as the starting point for negotiating price when I knew people were routinely getting 12-14% off MSRP...it's not entitlement...it's playing the game THE DEALERSHIPS have setup. I know the "house wins" more often than not and that's fine but customers who don't even try to play the game are idiots. It took 15 mins of internet searches, three emails and 30 mins of time in the dealership and DONE.

Not sure what you mean about being "ignorant as to what they would like to accomplish"? My goals are very well defined and specific - I want a particular vehicle with specific options, at a fair price with the best financing option I have available - both of my cars are currently at 0.9%. What else is there to it? I suppose it's more complicated with people who don't have any money and poor credit as you're usually trying to get them to specific monthly payment with ever increasingly [censored] financing deals that cost the customer significantly more in the end but I'm not that guy. I always qualify for the best financing deals so availability of what I want and the out the door price paid ARE the most important parts of the deal for me.
 
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The problem with Saturn is their pricing model was not competitive. Their $15,000.00 cars (or whatever they were) would compete against cars that had an MSRP of $20,000.00 or more-that could be had for the same price after discounts. So-you could actually buy a better car at the same price.

The only people who bought Saturns were those who dreaded the negotiation process.
 
Originally Posted by PWMDMD
Originally Posted by Ignatius
Originally Posted by PWMDMD
I should say this was about 10 years ago....he now owns a car buying service where you pay him a fee and he finds the exact car you want at what he claims is the best price


I have read through your other posts and you are hung up on what many people get hung up on, chasing the mythical "best price." There is no definition for what the "best price" constitutes and yet most people I have worked with who want to speak in such terms prefer to use it as a cudgel when they themselves are usually ignorant as to what they would like to accomplish, aside from wasting time.

You even said your guru car salesman can only make a claim and how do you really know if his claim is accurate? I'll tell you! There is no way to know
56.gif


What the "best price" is is what you will commit to pay. I could talk up 100 Chevy about buying a new Corvette and demand that they either sell me a new Corvette for 50% off or else I will not buy the car. Let's say ONE dealership agrees to sell me a new Corvette for 50% off and despite that being the "best price" I still refuse to commit to purchase, well then the price doesn't matter.


With the internet this stuff is not quantum mechanics. You can argue the semantics of what "best price means" all you want but the fact is I can go to any car forum and in the sticky section there is a "Price Paid" thread. I can then look at numerous websites for prices paid. The net result is living in the greater Boston area I know exactly what people are paying for each model and trim. I'm a really easy customer to get a deal done. I have impeccable credit, do my homework before hand and I don't expect to pillage in the process of getting the deal done. I even give you the courtesy of letting you know my ballpark before you ever waste any time meeting me.

My last purchase was easy - emailed three Lexus dealers with what I wanted. They emailed me back closest car they had in stock with the price. One sent MSRP (yeah right) and the other two were a within a couple hundred of each other in the 12-13% off MRSP. I emailed the closest one the quote given by there further one and he immediately said he'd beat that price by another $500....TTL were all the same. No stupid VIN etching or financing office shenanigans either. I took the 0.9% financing and signed and done. Could I get a better price...maybe...was I trying to pillage? Nope...seemed like a fair deal. All that said, I'd be a fool to not do my homework and pit each dealership against one another. Imagine all the people who would've accepted MSRP as the starting point for negotiating price when I knew people were routinely getting 12-14% off MSRP...it's not entitlement...it's playing the game THE DEALERSHIPS have setup. I know the "house wins" more often than not and that's fine but customers who don't even try to play the game are idiots. It took 15 mins of internet searches, three emails and 30 mins of time in the dealership and DONE.

Not sure what you mean about being "ignorant as to what they would like to accomplish"? My goals are very well defined and specific - I want a particular vehicle with specific options, at a fair price with the best financing option I have available - both of my cars are currently at 0.9%. What else is there to it? I suppose it's more complicated with people who don't have any money and poor credit as you're usually trying to get them to specific monthly payment with ever increasingly [censored] financing deals that cost the customer significantly more in the end but I'm not that guy. I always qualify for the best financing deals so availability of what I want and the out the door price paid ARE the most important parts of the deal for me.


Forgive me for striking a nerve, you are one individual that I will likely never sell a vehicle to and my posts in this thread relate to my experiences selling cars to a variety of different people in different places all in unique individual circumstances. Very little of what I have said was directed at you personally and if it were please understand that I was painting with a broad brush as if you were simply among ALL of who I could be referring to.

And like I mentioned in my first post in this thread, I am the founder and administrator of one of the premier Subaru enthusiast websites in the world. The #1 most popular thread of all time on that site is the prices paid thread which I have contributed more content to than anyone else. Everything you have said directed to me is preaching to the choir
grin2.gif
 
Originally Posted by Ignatius
Originally Posted by PWMDMD
Originally Posted by Ignatius
Originally Posted by PWMDMD
I should say this was about 10 years ago....he now owns a car buying service where you pay him a fee and he finds the exact car you want at what he claims is the best price


I have read through your other posts and you are hung up on what many people get hung up on, chasing the mythical "best price." There is no definition for what the "best price" constitutes and yet most people I have worked with who want to speak in such terms prefer to use it as a cudgel when they themselves are usually ignorant as to what they would like to accomplish, aside from wasting time.

You even said your guru car salesman can only make a claim and how do you really know if his claim is accurate? I'll tell you! There is no way to know
56.gif


What the "best price" is is what you will commit to pay. I could talk up 100 Chevy about buying a new Corvette and demand that they either sell me a new Corvette for 50% off or else I will not buy the car. Let's say ONE dealership agrees to sell me a new Corvette for 50% off and despite that being the "best price" I still refuse to commit to purchase, well then the price doesn't matter.


With the internet this stuff is not quantum mechanics. You can argue the semantics of what "best price means" all you want but the fact is I can go to any car forum and in the sticky section there is a "Price Paid" thread. I can then look at numerous websites for prices paid. The net result is living in the greater Boston area I know exactly what people are paying for each model and trim. I'm a really easy customer to get a deal done. I have impeccable credit, do my homework before hand and I don't expect to pillage in the process of getting the deal done. I even give you the courtesy of letting you know my ballpark before you ever waste any time meeting me.

My last purchase was easy - emailed three Lexus dealers with what I wanted. They emailed me back closest car they had in stock with the price. One sent MSRP (yeah right) and the other two were a within a couple hundred of each other in the 12-13% off MRSP. I emailed the closest one the quote given by there further one and he immediately said he'd beat that price by another $500....TTL were all the same. No stupid VIN etching or financing office shenanigans either. I took the 0.9% financing and signed and done. Could I get a better price...maybe...was I trying to pillage? Nope...seemed like a fair deal. All that said, I'd be a fool to not do my homework and pit each dealership against one another. Imagine all the people who would've accepted MSRP as the starting point for negotiating price when I knew people were routinely getting 12-14% off MSRP...it's not entitlement...it's playing the game THE DEALERSHIPS have setup. I know the "house wins" more often than not and that's fine but customers who don't even try to play the game are idiots. It took 15 mins of internet searches, three emails and 30 mins of time in the dealership and DONE.

Not sure what you mean about being "ignorant as to what they would like to accomplish"? My goals are very well defined and specific - I want a particular vehicle with specific options, at a fair price with the best financing option I have available - both of my cars are currently at 0.9%. What else is there to it? I suppose it's more complicated with people who don't have any money and poor credit as you're usually trying to get them to specific monthly payment with ever increasingly [censored] financing deals that cost the customer significantly more in the end but I'm not that guy. I always qualify for the best financing deals so availability of what I want and the out the door price paid ARE the most important parts of the deal for me.


Forgive me for striking a nerve, you are one individual that I will likely never sell a vehicle to and my posts in this thread relate to my experiences selling cars to a variety of different people in different places all in unique individual circumstances. Very little of what I have said was directed at you personally and if it were please understand that I was painting with a broad brush as if you were simply among ALL of who I could be referring to.

And like I mentioned in my first post in this thread, I am the founder and administrator of one of the premier Subaru enthusiast websites in the world. The #1 most popular thread of all time on that site is the prices paid thread which I have contributed more content to than anyone else. Everything you have said directed to me is preaching to the choir
grin2.gif



No nerve stricken. I guess my point is the ability to negotiate price of a car is silly since anyone with a clue can figure out what others are paying in about 15 mins. That means the system is really setup to take advantage of the clueless customers who still can't figure out how determine fair price for a vehicle. As time goes on I have to believe the clueless have been diminishing in numbers and most people go into a purchase knowing roughly where they want to be on the sale. Smart salesman identify these people quickly and give them what they want as quickly as possible to move a unit and move on hopefully to a clueless person who they can get more $$ out of for a little more effort.
 
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