The Fatal Flaw...
- Thread starter Mad_Hatter
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the 15% deal is a scam more then likely will damage pretty much every car that is not a flexfuel..
it will not save the earth from emissions but cause more emissions due to fuel leaks (which is worse then not burning it at all)
ethanol is used to boost the octane number (super super cheap to use) and repalced MTBE which replaced leaded fuel
it will not save the earth from emissions but cause more emissions due to fuel leaks (which is worse then not burning it at all)
ethanol is used to boost the octane number (super super cheap to use) and repalced MTBE which replaced leaded fuel
My owners manual says E15 WILL cause damage.
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I hate the stuff.
Shut up and eat your corn!
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Good read on the ethanol industry... enjoy....
"The Fatal Flaw in the Ethanol Industry"
Although I am grossly under-informed , what little I do know pretty well goes along with this article .
Thank you ,
Good read on the ethanol industry... enjoy....
"The Fatal Flaw in the Ethanol Industry"
Although I am grossly under-informed , what little I do know pretty well goes along with this article .
Thank you ,
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
My owners manual says E15 WILL cause damage.
As does mine.
Several years back I recall a thread where it was illustrated that it cost more energy to produce ethanol than you got from burning the ethanol....my memory could be inaccurate but unless they've come up with something miraculous in ethanol production, ethanol is a fool's errand - except for the farmers paid by the government to grow corn.
IMO biofuels, especially algae, could and should be the future of liquid fuels. But that industry won't be grown until all the oil is out of the ground.
My owners manual says E15 WILL cause damage.
As does mine.
Several years back I recall a thread where it was illustrated that it cost more energy to produce ethanol than you got from burning the ethanol....my memory could be inaccurate but unless they've come up with something miraculous in ethanol production, ethanol is a fool's errand - except for the farmers paid by the government to grow corn.
IMO biofuels, especially algae, could and should be the future of liquid fuels. But that industry won't be grown until all the oil is out of the ground.
It does take quite a bit of energy to make alcohol.
This is not a complete list
Energy for the farmer to plant and harvest, including cost of irrigation, fertilizer and insect/herbicides.
Energy to haul to plant.
Energy to store grain and keep ventilated and cool until used.
Energy for the water and grinding grain to make mash
Energy to distill the alcohol
Energy to dry the depleted mash, and haul to feedlot for cattle feed. This is one product and the energy gain from it is normally left out of energy balance equation or overstated, depending on if you are a pro or anti alcohol.
Energy to haul the alcohol and slightly reduced fuel economy.
It does not save much if any just a few percent when you do a full accounting, Corn grown out of the corn belt changes the balance to negative.
Very complex when you look at it. It was and still is a political boondoggle.
Rod
This is not a complete list
Energy for the farmer to plant and harvest, including cost of irrigation, fertilizer and insect/herbicides.
Energy to haul to plant.
Energy to store grain and keep ventilated and cool until used.
Energy for the water and grinding grain to make mash
Energy to distill the alcohol
Energy to dry the depleted mash, and haul to feedlot for cattle feed. This is one product and the energy gain from it is normally left out of energy balance equation or overstated, depending on if you are a pro or anti alcohol.
Energy to haul the alcohol and slightly reduced fuel economy.
It does not save much if any just a few percent when you do a full accounting, Corn grown out of the corn belt changes the balance to negative.
Very complex when you look at it. It was and still is a political boondoggle.
Rod
Originally Posted by csandste
Shut up and eat your corn!
Can I still have my pudding if I don't eat my corn?...
Originally Posted by WyrTwister
Although I am grossly under-informed , what little I do know pretty well goes along with this article .
Thank you ,
ðŸ‘..same was for me.
Originally Posted by JLTD
IMO biofuels, especially algae, could and should be the future of liquid fuels. But that industry won't be grown until all the oil is out of the ground.
Or the cost curve makes bio the clear choice but dino will always be needed in some shape or form. Keep in mind the govt can directly effect that curve (like we're seeing them do with ethanol) as well as it happening organically via market forces.
I'm a capitalist... anytime govt meddles, it disrupts things.. yes, sometimes for the better but historically for the worst. I know our farmers need help but I don't believe mandates are the way...I mean, what's the difference here with the mandate and having it be a State ran industry (socialist) - not much in my lay opinion...if the farmers need help, open up other markets for them to export to..not shut them.
Shut up and eat your corn!
Can I still have my pudding if I don't eat my corn?...
Originally Posted by WyrTwister
Although I am grossly under-informed , what little I do know pretty well goes along with this article .
Thank you ,
ðŸ‘..same was for me.
Originally Posted by JLTD
IMO biofuels, especially algae, could and should be the future of liquid fuels. But that industry won't be grown until all the oil is out of the ground.
Or the cost curve makes bio the clear choice but dino will always be needed in some shape or form. Keep in mind the govt can directly effect that curve (like we're seeing them do with ethanol) as well as it happening organically via market forces.
I'm a capitalist... anytime govt meddles, it disrupts things.. yes, sometimes for the better but historically for the worst. I know our farmers need help but I don't believe mandates are the way...I mean, what's the difference here with the mandate and having it be a State ran industry (socialist) - not much in my lay opinion...if the farmers need help, open up other markets for them to export to..not shut them.
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Meh, this is just an article by an author that is just repeating what has been stated elsewhere for years, probably just to generate content, to get paid. Nothing new here.
If I were his senior editor I would've rejected the article and told him to try harder next time.
If I were his senior editor I would've rejected the article and told him to try harder next time.
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Originally Posted by Dave9
Meh, this is just an article by an author that is just repeating what has been stated elsewhere for years, probably just to generate content, to get paid. Nothing new here.
If I were his senior editor I would've rejected the article and told him to try harder next time.
I haven't read those articles from years ago, so I found it informative...but to each his own....
Meh, this is just an article by an author that is just repeating what has been stated elsewhere for years, probably just to generate content, to get paid. Nothing new here.
If I were his senior editor I would've rejected the article and told him to try harder next time.
I haven't read those articles from years ago, so I found it informative...but to each his own....
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Good read on the ethanol industry... enjoy....
"The Fatal Flaw in the Ethanol Industry"
This story is nonsense. As I've said before, ethanol was chosen as an affordable substitute for MTBE. The petrochemical industry had almost a decade to come up with an affordable alternative themselves and failed.
It's akin to listening to someone constantly complain about X but is unable offer a viable alternative. I'd bet the "ethanol-haters" around here would loose their. if an ethanol alternative resulted in a $1/gallon price increase.
Good read on the ethanol industry... enjoy....
"The Fatal Flaw in the Ethanol Industry"
This story is nonsense. As I've said before, ethanol was chosen as an affordable substitute for MTBE. The petrochemical industry had almost a decade to come up with an affordable alternative themselves and failed.
It's akin to listening to someone constantly complain about X but is unable offer a viable alternative. I'd bet the "ethanol-haters" around here would loose their. if an ethanol alternative resulted in a $1/gallon price increase.
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ADM makes millions of gallons of ethanol about three miles from here. My next door neighbor works there. Nebraska is one of the leading producers of it. The small town forty two miles up the road where we lived before moving here has a Valero ethanol facility there. That plant was built by VeraSun, the world's largest ethanol producer at the time(2008). VeraSun went bankrupt almost immediately and Valero purchased the Albion plant and one in South Dakota at a fire sale price. Railroad grain cars with faded VeraSun still visible are sitting on railroad sidings in our area. I believe there is still litigation by investors trying to recover something from former board members and executive types. I think ethanol is one of the biggest bamboozle swindles ever perpetrated on the American taxpayer. Many in our area will disagree, some vehemently.
Originally Posted by ragtoplvr
It does take quite a bit of energy to make alcohol.
This is not a complete list
Energy for the farmer to plant and harvest, including cost of irrigation, fertilizer and insect/herbicides.
Energy to haul to plant.
Energy to store grain and keep ventilated and cool until used.
Energy for the water and grinding grain to make mash
Energy to distill the alcohol
Energy to dry the depleted mash, and haul to feedlot for cattle feed. This is one product and the energy gain from it is normally left out of energy balance equation or overstated, depending on if you are a pro or anti alcohol.
Energy to haul the alcohol and slightly reduced fuel economy.
It does not save much if any just a few percent when you do a full accounting, Corn grown out of the corn belt changes the balance to negative.
Very complex when you look at it. It was and still is a political boondoggle.
Rod
The problem with this type of analysis is determining whether or not the farmer would choose to plant a different crop in place of corn. The amount of energy used could flip depending upon the substitute crop.
It does take quite a bit of energy to make alcohol.
This is not a complete list
Energy for the farmer to plant and harvest, including cost of irrigation, fertilizer and insect/herbicides.
Energy to haul to plant.
Energy to store grain and keep ventilated and cool until used.
Energy for the water and grinding grain to make mash
Energy to distill the alcohol
Energy to dry the depleted mash, and haul to feedlot for cattle feed. This is one product and the energy gain from it is normally left out of energy balance equation or overstated, depending on if you are a pro or anti alcohol.
Energy to haul the alcohol and slightly reduced fuel economy.
It does not save much if any just a few percent when you do a full accounting, Corn grown out of the corn belt changes the balance to negative.
Very complex when you look at it. It was and still is a political boondoggle.
Rod
The problem with this type of analysis is determining whether or not the farmer would choose to plant a different crop in place of corn. The amount of energy used could flip depending upon the substitute crop.
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by ragtoplvr
It does take quite a bit of energy to make alcohol.
This is not a complete list
Energy for the farmer to plant and harvest, including cost of irrigation, fertilizer and insect/herbicides.
Energy to haul to plant.
Energy to store grain and keep ventilated and cool until used.
Energy for the water and grinding grain to make mash
Energy to distill the alcohol
Energy to dry the depleted mash, and haul to feedlot for cattle feed. This is one product and the energy gain from it is normally left out of energy balance equation or overstated, depending on if you are a pro or anti alcohol.
Energy to haul the alcohol and slightly reduced fuel economy.
It does not save much if any just a few percent when you do a full accounting, Corn grown out of the corn belt changes the balance to negative.
Very complex when you look at it. It was and still is a political boondoggle.
Rod
The problem with this type of analysis is determining whether or not the farmer would choose to plant a different crop in place of corn. The amount of energy used could flip depending upon the substitute crop.
And the problem with your analysis is determining whether it would be less expensive, less resource intensive and more efficient to just pump a bit more oil out of the already existing oil well. The oil well is already there just like the farmland.
Originally Posted by ragtoplvr
It does take quite a bit of energy to make alcohol.
This is not a complete list
Energy for the farmer to plant and harvest, including cost of irrigation, fertilizer and insect/herbicides.
Energy to haul to plant.
Energy to store grain and keep ventilated and cool until used.
Energy for the water and grinding grain to make mash
Energy to distill the alcohol
Energy to dry the depleted mash, and haul to feedlot for cattle feed. This is one product and the energy gain from it is normally left out of energy balance equation or overstated, depending on if you are a pro or anti alcohol.
Energy to haul the alcohol and slightly reduced fuel economy.
It does not save much if any just a few percent when you do a full accounting, Corn grown out of the corn belt changes the balance to negative.
Very complex when you look at it. It was and still is a political boondoggle.
Rod
The problem with this type of analysis is determining whether or not the farmer would choose to plant a different crop in place of corn. The amount of energy used could flip depending upon the substitute crop.
And the problem with your analysis is determining whether it would be less expensive, less resource intensive and more efficient to just pump a bit more oil out of the already existing oil well. The oil well is already there just like the farmland.
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
The problem with this type of analysis is determining whether or not the farmer would choose to plant a different crop in place of corn. The amount of energy used could flip depending upon the substitute crop.
And the problem with your analysis is determining whether it would be less expensive, less resource intensive and more efficient to just pump a bit more oil out of the already existing oil well. The oil well is already there just like the farmland.
One more time. Ethanol is a replacement for MTBE. No amount of oil pumped out of the ground is going to change that.
Is the market broken for Ethanol? Of course! Has anyone offered a cheaper/viable alternative? Nope, just a lot of whining.
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
The problem with this type of analysis is determining whether or not the farmer would choose to plant a different crop in place of corn. The amount of energy used could flip depending upon the substitute crop.
And the problem with your analysis is determining whether it would be less expensive, less resource intensive and more efficient to just pump a bit more oil out of the already existing oil well. The oil well is already there just like the farmland.
One more time. Ethanol is a replacement for MTBE. No amount of oil pumped out of the ground is going to change that.
Is the market broken for Ethanol? Of course! Has anyone offered a cheaper/viable alternative? Nope, just a lot of whining.
Kestas
Staff member
Good point. What ever happened to the idea of using switchgrass for ethanol production?
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
One more time. Ethanol is a replacement for MTBE. No amount of oil pumped out of the ground is going to change that.
Is the market broken for Ethanol? Of course! Has anyone offered a cheaper/viable alternative? Nope, just a lot of whining.
Sure, in your head or as a convenient obfuscating argument. Ethanol is a replacement for gasoline.
And yes. Gasoline.
One more time. Ethanol is a replacement for MTBE. No amount of oil pumped out of the ground is going to change that.
Is the market broken for Ethanol? Of course! Has anyone offered a cheaper/viable alternative? Nope, just a lot of whining.
Sure, in your head or as a convenient obfuscating argument. Ethanol is a replacement for gasoline.
And yes. Gasoline.
Originally Posted by Kestas
Good point. What ever happened to the idea of using switchgrass for ethanol production?
That was just a placebo included in the original legislation to shut up people who were complaining that the Renewable Fuels Standard would make the cost of food skyrocket.
Almost 20 years later, and switchgrass doesn't account for any significant amount of ethanol production.
Good point. What ever happened to the idea of using switchgrass for ethanol production?
That was just a placebo included in the original legislation to shut up people who were complaining that the Renewable Fuels Standard would make the cost of food skyrocket.
Almost 20 years later, and switchgrass doesn't account for any significant amount of ethanol production.
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