3.6L Pentastar Oil Viscosity In Other Countries?

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Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
A lot of turbocharged engines do spec 20 weight. I'm not sure what that has to do with the Pentastar however which is an extremely easy engine on oil.
Irrelevant for the Pentastar, totally relevant to the fact that most if not all xW-20 is NOT required to meet the TEOST 33C test standard which establishes oxidation and deposit-forming tendencies of engine oils, especially in the high temperature turbocharger area which most if not all xW-30 oils ARE required to meet. The statement was that "These new oils are outstanding and some of them hold up to higher heat than their 5w30 counterparts, such as M1 AP 0w20." and I am asking how that is possible given the test requirements of xW-30 versus that of xW-20 and what data point(s) were available to support that assertion.
 
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
A lot of turbocharged engines do spec 20 weight. I'm not sure what that has to do with the Pentastar however which is an extremely easy engine on oil.
Irrelevant for the Pentastar, totally relevant to the fact that most if not all xW-20 is required to meet the TEOST 33C test standard which establishes oxidation and deposit-forming tendencies of engine oils, especially in the high temperature turbocharger area which most if not all xW-30 oils ARE required to meet. The statement was that "These new oils are outstanding and some of them hold up to higher heat than their 5w30 counterparts, such as M1 AP 0w20." and I am asking how that is possible given the test requirements of xW-30 versus that of xW-20 and what data point(s) were available to support that assertion.


Just because they don't have to take a test does not mean they wouldn't pass it.
 
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
A lot of turbocharged engines do spec 20 weight. I'm not sure what that has to do with the Pentastar however which is an extremely easy engine on oil.
Irrelevant for the Pentastar, totally relevant to the fact that most if not all xW-20 is NOT required to meet the TEOST 33C test standard which establishes oxidation and deposit-forming tendencies of engine oils, especially in the high temperature turbocharger area which most if not all xW-30 oils ARE required to meet. The statement was that "These new oils are outstanding and some of them hold up to higher heat than their 5w30 counterparts, such as M1 AP 0w20." and I am asking how that is possible given the test requirements of xW-30 versus that of xW-20 and what data point(s) were available to support that assertion.
Just because they don't have to take a test does not mean they wouldn't pass it.
Again, proof is required--anything else is merely supposition. Saying that it "may" pass is one thing--stating they outperform other oils which do take the test with no supporting data is quite another.
 
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
A lot of turbocharged engines do spec 20 weight. I'm not sure what that has to do with the Pentastar however which is an extremely easy engine on oil.
Irrelevant for the Pentastar, totally relevant to the fact that most if not all xW-20 is NOT required to meet the TEOST 33C test standard which establishes oxidation and deposit-forming tendencies of engine oils, especially in the high temperature turbocharger area which most if not all xW-30 oils ARE required to meet. The statement was that "These new oils are outstanding and some of them hold up to higher heat than their 5w30 counterparts, such as M1 AP 0w20." and I am asking how that is possible given the test requirements of xW-30 versus that of xW-20 and what data point(s) were available to support that assertion.
Just because they don't have to take a test does not mean they wouldn't pass it.
Again, proof is required--anything else is merely supposition. Saying that it "may" pass is one thing--stating they outperform other oils which do take the test with no supporting data is quite another.


Well I don't want to speak for the other poster but I would imagine his point was almost all 0w20's, and especially the higher end long interval ones, use very high quality base stocks
 
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
[...]I would imagine his point was almost all 0w20's, and especially the higher end long interval ones, use very high quality base stocks
No argument there and I am not against xW-20 oils--I have used gallons and gallons of it, but I have also come to realize that when other countries use different viscosities versus those in the US, you have to acknowledge the role that CAFE plays in that versus xW-20 being a better choice for the engine.
 
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
[...]I would imagine his point was almost all 0w20's, and especially the higher end long interval ones, use very high quality base stocks
No argument there and I am not against xW-20 oils--I have used gallons and gallons of it, but I have also come to realize that when other countries use different viscosities versus those in the US, you have to acknowledge the role that CAFE plays in that versus xW-20 being a better choice for the engine.


As I said before I do think CAFE is part of it, but I don't know if it's the whole story. A lot of it is the driving we do here, very low speed and lots of idling. We don't have Autobahns or consistent year round temperatures of 100+, etc. For example I also have an Audi RS3 and I drive the crap out of it every chance I get. I've had it 16+ months and 14k miles. I was looking through the trip computer the other day which I've never reset and I have averaged 25 mph with it. I mean that's kind of sad
lol.gif
 
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by IndyFan
The oil itself looked to be in better shape at 7000 miles than the others were at around 4-5k, so I'm not betting my lunch that the heavier weight results in measurably less wear. These new oils are outstanding and some of them hold up to higher heat than their 5w30 counterparts, such as M1 AP 0w20. That goes counter to conventional wisdom in a pretty big way.
How so and what data point(s) establish this? When comparing like for like, I have difficulty believing xW-20 outperforms xW-30 in high heat applications especially when most (if not all) xW-20 oils do not have to pass the Thermo-oxidation Engine Oil Simulation Test (TEOST) standard. Now, understandably we may be splitting hairs here, but if xW-20 could handle more heat than their xW-30/40 counterparts, turbocharged engines would specify xW-20 and we could eliminate a couple of oil viscosities from the market.


Name a 5w30 and give its flash point. M1 AP 0w20 will beat most of them while at the same time having a lower pour point. I also think you are wrong about why modern turbo DI engines mostly specify 5w30. I'd bet it has more to do with fuel dilution than the heat from the turbo.
 
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
A lot of turbocharged engines do spec 20 weight. I'm not sure what that has to do with the Pentastar however which is an extremely easy engine on oil.
Irrelevant for the Pentastar, totally relevant to the fact that most if not all xW-20 is NOT required to meet the TEOST 33C test standard which establishes oxidation and deposit-forming tendencies of engine oils, especially in the high temperature turbocharger area which most if not all xW-30 oils ARE required to meet. The statement was that "These new oils are outstanding and some of them hold up to higher heat than their 5w30 counterparts, such as M1 AP 0w20." and I am asking how that is possible given the test requirements of xW-30 versus that of xW-20 and what data point(s) were available to support that assertion.


So you are assuming that because they aren't required to meet it that none of them do? I'd bet some of them would do it just fine, like M1 EP and AP. They specifically market the AP for turbo DI engines. I'm pretty sure Valvoline did the same with Valvoline ME. Neither had an asterisk cautioning not to use 0w20 in a turbo DI engine. Many oils meet or exceed standards they aren't required to meet. Call up some of the oil companies and ask them. Also note that I said "some of them." I did not say "all of them." (I called Mobil 1 and asked a rep if M1 AP or EP would be able to meet or exceed FCA's MS6395 standards. He laughed and said it would blow them away, but FCA won't allow them to have the approval.)

From one of your earlier posts, you also assumed I included 40 weight. I did not. I was referring to 5w30 oils. Heck, I'd even include 0w30 oils in that, though, too.
 
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Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
[...]I would imagine his point was almost all 0w20's, and especially the higher end long interval ones, use very high quality base stocks
No argument there and I am not against xW-20 oils--I have used gallons and gallons of it, but I have also come to realize that when other countries use different viscosities versus those in the US, you have to acknowledge the role that CAFE plays in that versus xW-20 being a better choice for the engine.


I never said CAFE had nothing to do with it. CAFE is the standard, so motor oil makers created oils that could meet it and still do what they did before, which is to provide excellent wear protection. I've seen a number of 0w20 UOA's that show very little wear. I've seen engines run on 5w20 with over 300k miles on them. My brother's company had a Ford F250 with a 5.4 that was going on 450k miles when it was stolen. It ran great and had a life of 5w20 and 10k change intervals. Those examples just don't support the idea that 0w20 oils cause more wear. I've not seen any pattern or trend on Bitog that shows engines prematurely wearing on 20 weight oils. This idea that they don't protect from wear as well as a 30 weight hasn't been proven anywhere, although I hear it all the time around Bitog and other places. I've seen many a Pentastar with Jeep clubs that are pushing 300k on a life of cheap 5w20 and cheap filters. They aren't even running the best oils. That doesn't support the idea that moving to a 30 weight or even a 40 will result in less wear or a longer lasting engine. Also, just because Europeans or others run heavier oils doesn't mean anything scientific, either. In the end, I could be wrong, but nobody has shown anything close to conclusive evidence that the specification of lighter oils has led to shorter engine life. I read through UOA's all the time on this site, and I just can't conclude that.

For poos and giggles, here's one right near the top today...It hardly looks like 0w16 is killing this engine. It has only 12ppm of iron with a break-in run of 4k miles. The guy is going "thick" with a 20 weight this time around. Why? Because he simply can't wrap his head around a 16w oil. No other reason. 0w16 Oh The Humanity!!!!

I'm old enough, btw, to remember when everybody thought 5w30 was too thin.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by IndyFan
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
A lot of turbocharged engines do spec 20 weight. I'm not sure what that has to do with the Pentastar however which is an extremely easy engine on oil.
Irrelevant for the Pentastar, totally relevant to the fact that most if not all xW-20 is NOT required to meet the TEOST 33C test standard which establishes oxidation and deposit-forming tendencies of engine oils, especially in the high temperature turbocharger area which most if not all xW-30 oils ARE required to meet. The statement was that "These new oils are outstanding and some of them hold up to higher heat than their 5w30 counterparts, such as M1 AP 0w20." and I am asking how that is possible given the test requirements of xW-30 versus that of xW-20 and what data point(s) were available to support that assertion.
So you are assuming that because they aren't required to meet it that none of them do? I'd bet some of them would do it just fine, like M1 EP and AP. They specifically market the AP for turbo DI engines. I'm pretty sure Valvoline did the same with Valvoline ME. Neither had an asterisk cautioning not to use 0w20 in a turbo DI engine. Many oils meet or exceed standards they aren't required to meet. Call up some of the oil companies and ask them. Also note that I said "some of them." I did not say "all of them." From one of your earlier posts, you also assumed I included 40 weight. I did not. I was referring to 5w30 oils. Heck, I'd even include 0w30 oils in that, though, too.
I did not assume that you included 0W-40 and I am not stating that because the test is not required that none of them could pass it. I am stating that without facts, there is nothing to support even stating that "some of them could pass it". How do we know with any certainty? Of course, we could assume or guess that some of them would pass.

With regards to the flash points—to be fair, you have to compare a 0W-20 with a 0W-30 (not a 5W-30) and since I did not find a 0W-30 AP on Mobil's website, I checked 0W-20 AFE against 0W-30 AFE and the flash point is higher on the 30 weight. I could not find the pour point of 0W-20 AFE, but 0W-30 AFE is -50°C.

Amsoil Signature Series 0W-20 and 0W-30 has the same flash point (220°C). The pour point of Amsoil 0W-20 is -53°C vs. -50°C for the 0W-30, which would definitely expect to see. In the end, it is splitting hairs and you may be correct about the reasons for turbo cars to use xW-30, but factual reasons are always preferable.
 
Here is a fun one. Just look at how that thin 20 weight is wearing the heck out of this Pentastar. :LOL

I'd love to see a 5w30 or thicker oil produce less iron than the 9ppm shown here with an 8600 mile run.

Btw, I didn't have to look past page 1 on the UOA forum to find the examples I've posted. I hardly think I got that lucky in finding outliers.

5w20 grinding this Pentystar to death!
 
Last edited:
Jeepers around our office are split on this - some do use 5w30. I'm still using 5w20 in our 2013 Pentastar and our new 5.3L's have 0w20 - but would not bat an eye over making that switch in any of them. (and have 5w30 in our Ford Fusion + 0w40 in our Cruze - both a grade upward)
Very curious, so how did one go from an AMG to the Jeep ? (not that I don't think it's cool - see my site name
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted by 4WD
Jeepers around our office are split on this - some do use 5w30. I'm still using 5w20 in our 2013 Pentastar and our new 5.3L's have 0w20 - but would not bat an eye over making that switch in any of them. (and have 5w30 in our Ford Fusion + 0w40 in our Cruze - both a grade upward)
Very curious, so how did one go from an AMG to the Jeep ? (not that I don't think it's cool - see my site name
wink.gif



Me? My E430 isn't an AMG, Lol. It is a nice car, though. DIfferent animals, but if I had to have just one machine, it would be a Jeep. I've had a Jeep most of my driving life. I won't ever be without one.

I don't think 5w30 would hurt a thing. I also don't believe it will have any advantage over 5w20 in this engine. Run the weight in which you have confidence.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by IndyFan
Here is a fun one. Just look at how that thin 20 weight is wearing the heck out of this Pentastar. :LOL

I'd love to see a 5w30 or thicker oil produce less iron than the 9ppm shown here with an 8600 mile run.

Btw, I didn't have to look past page 1 on the UOA forum to find the examples I've posted. I hardly think I got that lucky in finding outliers.

5w20 grinding this Pentystar to death!
I am NOT saying and never have said that xW-20 is going to destroy the engine--so put that to rest. I have used gallons and gallons of it. If you want to use it in your Pentastar, it is OK, I am NOT berating your choice. At the same time, I would like to understand why in other countries xW-30 was specified and I will assume CAFE is a primary reason it is not used here.
 
Originally Posted by IndyFan
Originally Posted by 4WD
Jeepers around our office are split on this - some do use 5w30. I'm still using 5w20 in our 2013 Pentastar and our new 5.3L's have 0w20 - but would not bat an eye over making that switch in any of them. (and have 5w30 in our Ford Fusion + 0w40 in our Cruze - both a grade upward)
Very curious, so how did one go from an AMG to the Jeep ? (not that I don't think it's cool - see my site name
wink.gif



Me? My E430 isn't an AMG, Lol. It is a nice car, though. DIfferent animals, but if I had to have just one machine, it would be a Jeep. I've had a Jeep most of my driving life. I won't ever be without one.


I meant PSD … think he replaced an AMG with it - but certainly understand your answer … They are unique, spirited, and capable vehicles
 
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by IndyFan
Here is a fun one. Just look at how that thin 20 weight is wearing the heck out of this Pentastar. :LOL

I'd love to see a 5w30 or thicker oil produce less iron than the 9ppm shown here with an 8600 mile run.

Btw, I didn't have to look past page 1 on the UOA forum to find the examples I've posted. I hardly think I got that lucky in finding outliers.

5w20 grinding this Pentystar to death!
I am NOT saying and never have said that xW-20 is going to destroy the engine--so put that to rest. I have used gallons and gallons of it. If you want to use it in your Pentastar, it is OK, I am NOT berating your choice. At the same time, I would like to understand why in other countries xW-30 was specified and I will assume CAFE is a primary reason it is not used here.


Lol, don't get too lit over all this. This is nothing more serious than a bar stool discussion.

I'm not sure we can really do more than guess why they run xw30 in Europe or other places. Why are do dirtier and more polluted countries chastise us about climate change? Who knows? They aren't any smarter. What it does say is that it won't hurt it anything to run a 30 weight. I'm not sure, though, about the gen 2 Pentastar in the JL. I don't know that they don't run 0w20 in them in Europe. I talked to a guy in the UK on the JL forum and he told me he runs Shell 0w20. I'm not sure what it says in his owner's manual, though. I'll try and find out.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by IndyFan
Here is a fun one. Just look at how that thin 20 weight is wearing the heck out of this Pentastar. :LOL

I'd love to see a 5w30 or thicker oil produce less iron than the 9ppm shown here with an 8600 mile run.

Btw, I didn't have to look past page 1 on the UOA forum to find the examples I've posted. I hardly think I got that lucky in finding outliers.

5w20 grinding this Pentystar to death!
I am NOT saying and never have said that xW-20 is going to destroy the engine--so put that to rest. I have used gallons and gallons of it. If you want to use it in your Pentastar, it is OK, I am NOT berating your choice. At the same time, I would like to understand why in other countries xW-30 was specified and I will assume CAFE is a primary reason it is not used here.


I believe they've changed all 3.6's over to Xw20. Just looked at the owners manual for a Euro 2018 Fiat Freemont, aka the Dodge Journey... both call for 5w20, though you may use 5w30 if Xw20 isn't available. If CAFE was behind going to a thinner grade, why did all of them world wide it seems follow suit?
 
Originally Posted by 4WD
Originally Posted by IndyFan
Originally Posted by 4WD
Jeepers around our office are split on this - some do use 5w30. I'm still using 5w20 in our 2013 Pentastar and our new 5.3L's have 0w20 - but would not bat an eye over making that switch in any of them. (and have 5w30 in our Ford Fusion + 0w40 in our Cruze - both a grade upward)
Very curious, so how did one go from an AMG to the Jeep ? (not that I don't think it's cool - see my site name
wink.gif



Me? My E430 isn't an AMG, Lol. It is a nice car, though. DIfferent animals, but if I had to have just one machine, it would be a Jeep. I've had a Jeep most of my driving life. I won't ever be without one.


I meant PSD … think he replaced an AMG with it - but certainly understand your answer … They are unique, spirited, and capable vehicles


Ahh, ok. Still can't take the doors off, though.
grin2.gif
 
Seems we've got a new wave of CAFE deniers...funny, we had a couple years without this specious "reasoning"
 
Originally Posted by 4WD
I meant PSD … think he replaced an AMG with it - but certainly understand your answer … They are unique, spirited, and capable vehicles
A number of reasons--some related to MB, but the main reason was I needed a 4x4 after selling my Powerstroke and the Jeep was the best fit.
 
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