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Re: Car salesmen need to go.... [Re: fdcg27] #5192380 08/20/19 07:43 PM
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Ignatius Online Sleepy
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Originally Posted by fdcg27
I suspect those who think they're really working a dealer over have no idea what a good price is to begin with and only end up screwing themselves.
A savvy horse trader already knows what he has to pay going in. You cannot negotiate from ignorance.


I begrudge not a single person who is committed to doing business with me but if you are not committed and want to play games that waste your time and mine, I would just as soon see you leave and never have anything to do with you again. I value my time to the point that I don't want to waste your time.

I find that you, as the salesperson, are either selling a car or you are being sold yourself on a line of BS. Unfortunately in this business you do deal with a lot of ignorant people that act awfully ignorant and often times it is because they know that they have the buying power, however, they want to leverage that to act in bad faith.

Last edited by Ignatius; 08/20/19 07:44 PM.

2018 Subaru Outback Limited - 75,000 miles
2018 Subaru Outback Premium - 30,000 miles
2012 Hyundai Accent GLS - 93,000 miles
2005 Dodge Sprinter 3500 - 161,000 miles
Re: Car salesmen need to go.... [Re: Ignatius] #5192580 08/20/19 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Ignatius
[quote=fdcg27]I suspect those who think they're really working a dealer over have no idea what a good price is to begin with and only end up screwing themselves.
A savvy horse trader already knows what he has to pay going in. You cannot negotiate from ignorance.


I begrudge not a single person who is committed to doing business with me but if you are not committed and want to play games that waste your time and mine, I would just as soon see you leave and never have anything to do with you again. I value my time to the point that I don't want to waste your time.

I find that you, as the salesperson, are either selling a car or you are being sold yourself on a line of BS. Unfortunately in this business you do deal with a lot of ignorant people that act awfully ignorant and often times it is because they know that they have the buying power, however, they want to leverage that to act in bad faith.[/quote]

Yea- kind of the like the non sense that happens in the finance office. Talk about pushing products that are useless-sounds like "bad faith" to me.

I had a line item for $600.00 show up on the contract in the finance office once-without my consent. It was for "Key FOB" insurance.

Luckily the wife (ex-school teacher) caught it.

Last edited by CKN; 08/20/19 11:54 PM.
Re: Car salesmen need to go.... [Re: buster] #5192705 08/21/19 08:14 AM
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I don't think sales people need to go but I do think prices need to be fixed. The price on the car is the price on car no matter where you go and the sales person's job is simply to show you the car, answer questions and get you to sign on the dotted line.

This would force sales people to focus on volume and experience and not trying to squeeze every last penny out of you.

Many buyers go into a purchase knowing exactly what others have paid for the same car and the process of sales people trying to take advantage of you when you've clearly done you homework is just disheartening. I don't even speak to someone in person until I've already established over email that they are not creeps and they are in the ballpark for what I want to pay. I don't expect dealerships to take a loss on the sale but I also don't need some [censored] trying to squeeze me for $3K above MSRP when I know the rest of America is paying $3K under MSRP.

I have a friend who is one of the #1 Subaru car salesmen in the US. His strategy is volume over the Internet. He does almost all of his negotiating over the internet because he can "work with" multiple people at one time. He also gives them really good first offers because all he cares about is volume (and getting the dealer holdback) and wasting as little time as possible per sale. He makes a GREAT living doing it this way with AWESOME reviews (people are shocked his initial price is lower than their final goal) while his colleagues walk the floor making many fewer sales trying to squeeze every last penny out of customers.

Last edited by PWMDMD; 08/21/19 08:16 AM.

Current: 2019 Lexus RX 350 (Mobil AFE 0W-30 and Toyota OEM Filter) and 2018 Honda Pilot Touring (Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 and Fram ULTRA XG7317)
Re: Car salesmen need to go.... [Re: Ignatius] #5192706 08/21/19 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Ignatius
Originally Posted by MCompact

I also noticed that some of the wealthiest buyer were the most obstinate. One sale I assisted with was the wife of a well-known TV personality with a net worth of several million dollars. The couple argued over $20/month on a 36 month X3 lease.


The most typical mindsets of these kinds of people are:

"I am entitled to my demands"
"I am the person who is going to get the 'best deal possible'"
"I am not going to let you 'rip me off'"

Usually what it comes down to is people who believe something when the reality is that they don't know jack. I have heard things like, "no matter what the price is, I know you are making a HUGE profits of this sale" which often times is completely ridiculous.

I remember the second used Subaru I sold, my store LOST $6000 selling that car and while that is not the norm it happens to probably every store often enough to dispel the notion that every car sold = massive profit = I am getting "ripped off" mentality.

Re: Car salesmen need to go.... [Re: Ignatius] #5192711 08/21/19 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Ignatius


The most typical mindsets of these kinds of people are:

"I am entitled to my demands"
"I am the person who is going to get the 'best deal possible'"
"I am not going to let you 'rip me off'"



Well said!

Folks want to be able to brag that they are too smart to let any old car salesman get the better of them. Then they offer all of their car buying tips to their friends and explaining to them that they were ripped off because they aren't as smart as they are. They will finish off by saying that they got it cheaper than anyone else. Or at least the salesman played the part and let them believe that.

Re: Car salesmen need to go.... [Re: SeaJay] #5192760 08/21/19 09:18 AM
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PWMDMD Offline
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Originally Posted by SeaJay
Originally Posted by Ignatius


The most typical mindsets of these kinds of people are:

"I am entitled to my demands"
"I am the person who is going to get the 'best deal possible'"
"I am not going to let you 'rip me off'"



Well said!

Folks want to be able to brag that they are too smart to let any old car salesman get the better of them. Then they offer all of their car buying tips to their friends and explaining to them that they were ripped off because they aren't as smart as they are. They will finish off by saying that they got it cheaper than anyone else. Or at least the salesman played the part and let them believe that.


But this is mostly due to he fact that prices are negotiable. Buyers go into thinking every car salesman simply wants to try and screw them over and there are enough tales out there to support this assumption. Why shouldn't a buyer try their best to get the best price if the salesman is going to try and do their best to sell the car for the highest price?

Personally, I think the key is I try and find a salesman who wants to be fair and in kind I want to be fair as well. Again, I don't expect anyone to take a loss on a sale but in 2019 it is not hard to know what a good price is for car. I send an email stating what I'm looking for and what I think is fair as far as price to a couple dealerships. Some will come back with a ridiculous price and some come back within a couple hundred of what I wanted to pay. Sometimes, they come in under what I wanted to pay. Then it comes down to availability of the sales person and the specific vehicle I'm looking for. My last 5 or 6 purchases have been low key, quick and easy. Basically, I just show up to do a walk around on the vehicle and sign papers. I haven't even had to deal with shenanigans in the finances office - I've just taken my 0.9% and signed on the dotted line.

I've had the worst experiences at Toyota and Honda dealerships - literally a showroom full of sharks. No thanks....I just walk. I crossed the 4-Runner off my list just because I can't find a Toyota dealership in the area who doesn't have sale people who are the cliche sales people. Lexus was by far the easiest I've dealt with for a sale.

Last edited by PWMDMD; 08/21/19 09:23 AM.

Current: 2019 Lexus RX 350 (Mobil AFE 0W-30 and Toyota OEM Filter) and 2018 Honda Pilot Touring (Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 and Fram ULTRA XG7317)
Re: Car salesmen need to go.... [Re: buster] #5192801 08/21/19 10:02 AM
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I recently attended a Drive and Compare event, which was offered by one car group which owns several different dealerships. These were the Rav4's and CRV type cars. They even borrowed a couple of cars from other car dealerships which they did not carry. You had to sign up for the event, but it did give you an opportunity to look at, sit in and ask questions about the cars.. You were then allowed to take which ever one you wanted for a test drive along with a sales person. All of the salesmen/ saleswomen had a good base knowledge of the car you were test driving. Most of the sales reps were layed back and wanted to give you a good experience while there were a couple who were a little on the high pressure side. So in conclusion I was able to determine which ones I liked the best which in some cases was the complete opposite from what I had read about on the internet from the so called auto experts. So you need to drive and decide for yourself. About a week after the event I got a short email from them thanking me for attending and that has been it, so it was an enjoyable experience. Now I have to decide which car to buy whether from them or someone else.

Re: Car salesmen need to go.... [Re: buster] #5192840 08/21/19 11:06 AM
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My center expected the entire sales staff to possess a solid knowledge of the vehicles we were selling. Some of us specialized in certain areas. In my case I dealt primarily with EVs, PHEVs, and M Performance and M cars.


Mine:
2014 M235i
2009 Cooper Clubman
1999 Wrangler Sahara
1995 318ti Club Sport

Wife's:
2015 X1 xDrive28i M Sport


Son's
2009 328i

Buy what makes you smile...
Re: Car salesmen need to go.... [Re: PWMDMD] #5192916 08/21/19 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by PWMDMD



I have a friend who is one of the #1 Subaru car salesmen in the US. His strategy is volume over the Internet. He does almost all of his negotiating over the internet because he can "work with" multiple people at one time. He also gives them really good first offers because all he cares about is volume (and getting the dealer holdback) and wasting as little time as possible per sale. He makes a GREAT living doing it this way with AWESOME reviews (people are shocked his initial price is lower than their final goal) while his colleagues walk the floor making many fewer sales trying to squeeze every last penny out of customers.


It's interesting how some automakers allow dealers to conduct volume sales on vehicles but not other products associated with the vehicle. For example a few years ago a BMW dealer in LA was offering a fantastic price on extended warranties and all you had to do was mail him your key so he could get a key-read for the mileage and do the paperwork. This dealer allegedly did so much business that other dealers complained and per BMWNA it became policy that in order to write an extended warranty the vehicle had to be brought to the dealership. I was PO'd but whatever. So instead of BMWNA making some money from me on an extended warranty, they made $0.


“It took untold generations to get you where you are. A little gratitude might be in order. If you’re going to insist on bending the world to your way, you better have your reasons.”

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Re: Car salesmen need to go.... [Re: Ignatius] #5193037 08/21/19 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Ignatius


I begrudge not a single person who is committed to doing business with me but if you are not committed and want to play games that waste your time and mine, I would just as soon see you leave and never have anything to do with you again.


I agree a buyer should come to the dealership serious and prepared (and qualified) to buy that day.

Here's what we did on both the F150 and the GMC recently purchased (see sig below). Lot of internet research, use of autotrader and cars.com to get a grasp on what models equipped as we wanted were listing at in our region and on general trade-in values of our cars. We were not interested in long distance fly and buys, and preferred to stay regional. Then use of the various pricing sites, kbb, truecar. Made internet inquiries on in-stock ones interested in to get things going. What we wanted equipment wise weren't mainstream and were lower trims within both model lines, sle trim for the gmc and 4x4 xl stx pkg for the f150, so some limitation on inventory. Once we found the ones we wanted and had the common pricing in mind, gathered title to trade-in vehicle, unlocked our credit reports (always locked for security), grabbed checkbook and went to the dealer that had the ones we wanted, driving there in the trade-in. We went onto the lot with the mindset that if the test drive was good and final price right trigger would be pulled on purchase. We did ok I think. $23,200 + TTL on the terrain sle 2wd msrp 29,900 and $32,364 + TTL on the f150 msrp 42,395. kbb excel condition trade value on both trades.

That may not have been the best way but I feel like the dealership knew we weren't there only for tire kicking and hem hawing.

Had we been willing to travel far for each one we might have done maybe $300 or 400 better on the gmc and maybe $500 - 750 better on the f150 at that point in time (discounts and factory incentives change over time) but not worth the hassle and time off work.




2019 Ford F-150 ................................(Factory fill)
2019 GMC Terrain .............................(ACDelco dexos2)
2016 Moto Guzzi Stelvio <for sale>...(eni 10W60)
Re: Car salesmen need to go.... [Re: buster] #5193038 08/21/19 03:05 PM
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Ignatius Online Sleepy
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Quote
Yea- kind of the like the non sense that happens in the finance office. Talk about pushing products that are useless-sounds like "bad faith" to me.

I had a line item for $600.00 show up on the contract in the finance office once-without my consent. It was for "Key FOB" insurance.

Luckily the wife (ex-school teacher) caught it.


FWIW that is about the going rate to replace a keyless entry keyfob so the price was not bad.

Speaking of F&I, some of the most pathetic customers I have had to deal with would beg and plead with me over the price, payments, etc giving me the old, "we just can't afford more than $XXX.xx per month!" It's always some drama.

Then those same people will go back and drop multiple thousands of dollars in F&I and bump their payment waaaay up. If you wonder why you can't trust car sales people in is in large part because they have to deal with nonsense like this constantly and it leads them to not be able to trust customers.

Originally Posted by PWMDMD
I don't think sales people need to go but I do think prices need to be fixed. The price on the car is the price on car no matter where you go and the sales person's job is simply to show you the car, answer questions and get you to sign on the dotted line.

This would force sales people to focus on volume and experience and not trying to squeeze every last penny out of you.

Many buyers go into a purchase knowing exactly what others have paid for the same car and the process of sales people trying to take advantage of you when you've clearly done you homework is just disheartening. I don't even speak to someone in person until I've already established over email that they are not creeps and they are in the ballpark for what I want to pay. I don't expect dealerships to take a loss on the sale but I also don't need some [censored] trying to squeeze me for $3K above MSRP when I know the rest of America is paying $3K under MSRP.


Fixed pricing on new cars doesn't have a good track record and you may not see the contradiction in what you are saying. You can do all the research you want on who bought what from where but there are so many variables that go into every single car deal that no matter what the circumstances are going to be unique for every customer. This is an attitude of entitlement like I spoke about earlier. It doesn't make sense to talk about fixed pricing in one sentence and then how you want to be the person getting some better deal in the next.

Originally Posted by PWMDMD
I have a friend who is one of the #1 Subaru car salesmen in the US. His strategy is volume over the Internet. He does almost all of his negotiating over the internet because he can "work with" multiple people at one time. He also gives them really good first offers because all he cares about is volume (and getting the dealer holdback) and wasting as little time as possible per sale. He makes a GREAT living doing it this way with AWESOME reviews (people are shocked his initial price is lower than their final goal) while his colleagues walk the floor making many fewer sales trying to squeeze every last penny out of customers.


If that is what works for them that's good for them. The most successful person I have known in the car business hand writes notes with his wife and sends them out to every customer for things like birthdays, anniversaries, graduations, etc. That guy has not sold less than 50 vehicles per month for years, he has his own personal secretary and works by referral appointments only. In good months he does insane business, the last time I saw him his commuter car was a new Viper.

Last edited by Ignatius; 08/21/19 03:08 PM.

2018 Subaru Outback Limited - 75,000 miles
2018 Subaru Outback Premium - 30,000 miles
2012 Hyundai Accent GLS - 93,000 miles
2005 Dodge Sprinter 3500 - 161,000 miles
Re: Car salesmen need to go.... [Re: PWMDMD] #5193275 08/21/19 07:44 PM
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Okay, but no Subaru dealership would allow this with vehicles that were volume limited, like the made in Japan Forester but would allow it all day long on vehicles readily available, like the made in Indiana Legacy sedan or its wagon version, the Outback.
Too much money to be made on a Forester.
A salesman can only do what his masters allow, so obviously the cheapo approach was in line with what the dealer principle wanted as his operating strategy.


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Re: Car salesmen need to go.... [Re: fdcg27] #5193965 08/22/19 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by fdcg27
Okay, but no Subaru dealership would allow this with vehicles that were volume limited, like the made in Japan Forester but would allow it all day long on vehicles readily available, like the made in Indiana Legacy sedan or its wagon version, the Outback.
Too much money to be made on a Forester.
A salesman can only do what his masters allow, so obviously the cheapo approach was in line with what the dealer principle wanted as his operating strategy.


Guess you havent heard of Heuberger or Ramsey. Dealers complained, now if you buy Subaru out of market extra 500 charge.

Its fun working with dealers out to move vehicles like PWMDMD said you can literally can be done shopping in a couple of emails.

Re: Car salesmen need to go.... [Re: buster] #5194109 08/22/19 07:09 PM
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There is one price msrp... you can have a great buying experience.

Re: Car salesmen need to go.... [Re: fdcg27] #5194169 08/22/19 08:28 PM
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Ignatius Online Sleepy
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Originally Posted by fdcg27
Okay, but no Subaru dealership would allow this with vehicles that were volume limited, like the made in Japan Forester but would allow it all day long on vehicles readily available, like the made in Indiana Legacy sedan or its wagon version, the Outback.
Too much money to be made on a Forester.
A salesman can only do what his masters allow, so obviously the cheapo approach was in line with what the dealer principle wanted as his operating strategy.


This is not my experience working for two of the top Subaru dealerships in the country that were each in two separate geographic regions, our regional competitors were all doing the same thing and many of them were among the top in the US as well.

I have heard people say things like that about Subaru vehicles produced in Japan but anyone in dealership management worth their salt knows that a vehicle sold is a vehicle sold. To me a WRX or a Forester is just another product and there is nothing special about them. And FYI, the best money you can make is ALWAYS on an Outback. Maybe an Ascent or two that I have sold has been in that same range but I can assure you that the Forester is at least one tier below in profitability.


2018 Subaru Outback Limited - 75,000 miles
2018 Subaru Outback Premium - 30,000 miles
2012 Hyundai Accent GLS - 93,000 miles
2005 Dodge Sprinter 3500 - 161,000 miles
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