Car salesmen need to go....

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Originally Posted by Ignatius
Originally Posted by SevenBizzos

Not that my opinion matters. But I find everyone involved in the traditional car buying process is there putting on a show.


This quote is probably the one I would be paying tge most attention to so far in this thread. I think there are many distinct similarities between car sales, stage acting, politics, and pro wrestling,


Good friend used to say, "Car salesman are the pro wrestlers of commerce."
 
Originally Posted by emg
Then you get to feel ripped off every time you get in the car for the next ten years.

Seriously, is there any other form of retail which does its best to make the buyer feel ripped off even before they take their purchase home?

Well do you want convenience or do you want a good deal?

You're not getting both.
 
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by emg
Then you get to feel ripped off every time you get in the car for the next ten years.

Seriously, is there any other form of retail which does its best to make the buyer feel ripped off even before they take their purchase home?

Well do you want convenience or do you want a good deal?

You're not getting both.


If you do it right, you can have both. Never negotiate in person, always over email.
 
When I worked at BMW I was primarily a product specialist but I could also sell cars if the rest of the sales staff was busy. I never really ran across any unpleasant customers, but then it wasn't a high-pressure sales atmosphere, and we didn't spring any "gotcha!" fees on buyers either. I'd probably still be working there but I hated working weekends and most holidays.
Last year when I was running for office I always got a big laugh when I told people I had been an attorney, a car salesman, and a politician- so I guessed that I couldn't sink any lower down the vocational food chain...
 
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by buster
Why should one have to negotiate to buy a car? Just asking.

You don't have to negotiate. Sticker's quicker.

If you think consumers win when dealers have "no-haggle" pricing, you're wrong.


+1 on all accounts.

The reality is that we as a population have been detuned and trained to accept what a vendor tells us.

It's how CarMax and AutoLenders capitalize on ripping people off.

No business would be a business without a spread between what they pay for an item and what they sell it for. That's the same regardless of if it's cars, widgets, food, etc.

The two biggest purchases most folks make are a home and a car. Home pricing in a secondary market is arbitrary based upon comps; totally negotiable.

Cars are a finished good with a set retail price. Because theres a list price there's also a dealer cost.

I know none or that is earth shattering.

Anything in theory could be negotiated. People want to negotiate cars because they're so expensive. But anything can be. The issue is that we're trained, by the retail industry to accept a manufacturers price. And some (many) businesses will not negotiate on price.

That is part of the reason why eBay is such a strong market for new stuff. It's a great piece of the power of the internet.

Before the net, book sellers had pricing books where you could option out the msrp and invoice price of a car. Now there's more opportunity to have info.

You always need someone to set prices, discounts, and approve sales. How you wouldn't have that, in any industry, is beyond me. The "build my ____" tool that all automakers offer is a step away from salesmen, but it is a step towards the uninformed consumer accepting a price they are told is the answer.
 
Originally Posted by JHZR2
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by buster
Why should one have to negotiate to buy a car? Just asking.

You don't have to negotiate. Sticker's quicker.

If you think consumers win when dealers have "no-haggle" pricing, you're wrong.


+1 on all accounts.

The reality is that we as a population have been detuned and trained to accept what a vendor tells us.

It's how CarMax and AutoLenders capitalize on ripping people off.

No business would be a business without a spread between what they pay for an item and what they sell it for. That's the same regardless of if it's cars, widgets, food, etc.

The two biggest purchases most folks make are a home and a car. Home pricing in a secondary market is arbitrary based upon comps; totally negotiable.

Cars are a finished good with a set retail price. Because theres a list price there's also a dealer cost.

I know none or that is earth shattering.

Anything in theory could be negotiated. People want to negotiate cars because they're so expensive. But anything can be. The issue is that we're trained, by the retail industry to accept a manufacturers price. And some (many) businesses will not negotiate on price.

That is part of the reason why eBay is such a strong market for new stuff. It's a great piece of the power of the internet.

Before the net, book sellers had pricing books where you could option out the msrp and invoice price of a car. Now there's more opportunity to have info.

You always need someone to set prices, discounts, and approve sales. How you wouldn't have that, in any industry, is beyond me. The "build my ____" tool that all automakers offer is a step away from salesmen, but it is a step towards the uninformed consumer accepting a price they are told is the answer.


I don't see how Carmax rips anyone off, they fix their prices and you either pay the price and buy the vehicle or you don't. Saturn employed this same strategy years ago and they are out of business. I worked in the Indianapolis market selling cars for two years (2016-2018) and there was a Carmax a few blocks away from my dealership and they sold an average of 400 vehicles per month while having the highest average prices in our market. My store tried to sell a total of 200 new and used vehicles every month, considering our new brand and store size in the market that is very good.

I don't think it may be as much that we have been conditioned to be good little consumers but rather, at least for many, they just want to acquire something and move on in life. Many people value their time above money and frankly I am of the mindset that this is a good way to think. My mentor taught me that it is good to have enough money so that you don't have to worry about what you spend. Spending money should not be stressful, it should not be something we should spend a lot of time thinking about or in some cases obsessing over.

In my experience the happiest customers I have had are the ones that just buy a car, even at full price, and just enjoy their purchase. The miserable one are ALWAYS the people that just have to grind out every last penny out of a deal, often times they are the people who can most easily afford to buy a car. I remember people who made $300,000 to $400,000 per year coming in to buy a $30,000 to $40,000 car and wanting to pick a fight with me for an hour over one or two hundred dollars in a car deal we've bent over backwards to get done.

When is the price of the car the price of the car and you commit to purchase? The games that people play to avoid damaging their ego, most times it's not about money as much as pride.
 
Originally Posted by Ignatius


I don't see how Carmax rips anyone off, they fix their prices and you either pay the price and buy the vehicle or you don't. Saturn employed this same strategy years ago and they are out of business. I worked in the Indianapolis market selling cars for two years (2016-2018) and there was a Carmax a few blocks away from my dealership and they sold an average of 400 vehicles per month while having the highest average prices in our market. My store tried to sell a total of 200 new and used vehicles every month, considering our new brand and store size in the market that is very good.

I don't think it may be as much that we have been conditioned to be good little consumers but rather, at least for many, they just want to acquire something and move on in life. Many people value their time above money and frankly I am of the mindset that this is a good way to think. My mentor taught me that it is good to have enough money so that you don't have to worry about what you spend. Spending money should not be stressful, it should not be something we should spend a lot of time thinking about or in some cases obsessing over.

In my experience the happiest customers I have had are the ones that just buy a car, even at full price, and just enjoy their purchase. The miserable one are ALWAYS the people that just have to grind out every last penny out of a deal, often times they are the people who can most easily afford to buy a car. I remember people who made $300,000 to $400,000 per year coming in to buy a $30,000 to $40,000 car and wanting to pick a fight with me for an hour over one or two hundred dollars in a car deal we've bent over backwards to get done.

When is the price of the car the price of the car and you commit to purchase? The games that people play to avoid damaging their ego, most times it's not about money as much as pride.


I also noticed that some of the wealthiest buyer were the most obstinate. One sale I assisted with was the wife of a well-known TV personality with a net worth of several million dollars. The couple argued over $20/month on a 36 month X3 lease.
 
Originally Posted by MCompact

I also noticed that some of the wealthiest buyer were the most obstinate. One sale I assisted with was the wife of a well-known TV personality with a net worth of several million dollars. The couple argued over $20/month on a 36 month X3 lease.


The most typical mindsets of these kinds of people are:

"I am entitled to my demands"
"I am the person who is going to get the 'best deal possible'"
"I am not going to let you 'rip me off'"

Usually what it comes down to is people who believe something when the reality is that they don't know jack. I have heard things like, "no matter what the price is, I know you are making a HUGE profits of this sale" which often times is completely ridiculous.

I remember the second used Subaru I sold, my store LOST $6000 selling that car and while that is not the norm it happens to probably every store often enough to dispel the notion that every car sold = massive profit = I am getting "ripped off" mentality.
 
I have no beefs about the recent buying experience on the F150 or the wife's GMC. Both dealers were not commission lots. That is, the sales person earns the same if they sell you a loaded upper trim luxury model or the base model w/ no options. At least, this is what they both said. And they are not related dealerships in any way, one is owned by one local family and sells Cadillac, Buick, GMC, and Subaru the other is owned by a different local family and sells Ford. Both claimed to be selling below invoice.

At the Ford place I dealt directly with the sales mgr who also said he receives a flat fee not a variable commission. He did not try to steer me to an upper trim. I went there to look at and test drive a base model F150 4x4 with the STX package and XL Sport Appearance package along with locking diff and a few other options that they had numerous in stock equipped about same. He asked if I intended to tow often and above 5000 lb and how much and how often planned to haul cargo in the box. When I indicated light use on all and seldom towing, and that I wasn't interested in a lot of luxury extras he agreed the base XL as equipped was a great choice for us. He claimed that after his flat fee, and other sales expenses they were making $67.00 on the truck at time of sale not counting sales incentives rewards and volume bonuses from Ford for how many they sell per quarter. I just know he was pretty straight forward, low pressure, didn't try to upsell me stuff, and revealed their holdback on the truck which showed as $1500, and claimed they were giving most of that into the deal. Who knows if all that's bonafide, but it wasn't a bad experience.

Similar experience across town with her GMC in April. Holdback shown and put into the deal, no attempts to steer us above the 2wd SLE trim Terrains we'd drove onto the lot to look at, just a tight deal on the one she wanted.

I really have nothing bad to say about our two recent car buying experiences.

edit P.S.: They did both try to sell the paint protection, fabric protection, and extended warranty. GMC dealer did give a semi high pressure pitch for each but backed off when he saw I was firmly not going for it, although he acted sort of but hurt about my turning it down. Ford dealer was very casual and low pressure about those offerings, didn't seem to mind that I turned them down.
 
Originally Posted by Ignatius


I remember the second used Subaru I sold, my store LOST $6000 selling that car and while that is not the norm it happens to probably every store often enough to dispel the notion that every car sold = massive profit = I am getting "ripped off" mentality.


We lost a bundle on my first sale. The previous owner of the Center had punched the car as a loaner and the current staff(myself included) didn't know that. The deal was predicated on trunk money that loaners weren't eligible to get. I think it was like $2500; my NCM didn't realize it either. Needless to say we ate the loss and honored the deal- and we never let the customers know, either.
 
Not really.
When we bought our newest car, I already had a below various buying sites (your know, Costco and the like) number in hand.
We had the option of buying or not on that day. No urgency on our part.
I made the place an offer that was much less costly and after some back and forth, they met it.
Not hard, not entitled and not time consuming.
From showing up to test drive the car and writing a check, the process was less than two hours.
I bought the '12 Accord at the killer price of $19.2K in even less time, having already worked out the deal via email.
There are deals to be had for the savvy and alert and they don't require a lot of time nor that one act like a jerk.
Those who really need a car today or who are afraid to negotiate are in a different position.
 
Originally Posted by fdcg27
Not really.
When we bought our newest car, I already had a below various buying sites (your know, Costco and the like) number in hand.
We had the option of buying or not on that day. No urgency on our part.
I made the place an offer that was much less costly and after some back and forth, they met it.
Not hard, not entitled and not time consuming.
From showing up to test drive the car and writing a check, the process was less than two hours.
I bought the '12 Accord at the killer price of $19.2K in even less time, having already worked out the deal via email.
There are deals to be had for the savvy and alert and they don't require a lot of time nor that one act like a jerk.
Those who really need a car today or who are afraid to negotiate are in a different position.


I am perfectly happy to get a car deal done this way, it saves you time & money and ultimately it saves me time & money too as my time is my livelihood.

For my part I was primarily referring to people who make things as difficult as possible not only for themselves but for everyone that they work with, when they simply don't need to think and act that way. They most often do this because they think that if they do they will receive some ultra-desireable result. I would just as soon make things quick and easy and move on in life. I am not your adversary, I would want to work with you to come to an agreement that we mutually benefit from as soon as possible.
 
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In principle, I agree with you that the fixed price model is probably not the best. I do like CarMax though and have sold several cars to them now. They are very reasonable.

The guy I bought my truck from was very nice. He wasn't pushy at all. It's hit or miss with them.....at the Chevy dealer the guy was just not that bright.
 
We're probably on the same page then.
It is the responsibility of the buyer to know what a good market price is before he walks into a store.
If you already have a good price in hand, you can then ask for a reasonable discount from it.
If the store wants to do the deal at your price, great.
If not, you may still save some money over what you already had offered.
I agree with you in that it is silly to spend hours grinding out the last hundred bucks on a deal.
I have things I'd rather do as do you.
I suspect those who think they're really working a dealer over have no idea what a good price is to begin with and only end up screwing themselves.
A savvy horse trader already knows what he has to pay going in. You cannot negotiate from ignorance.
 
Originally Posted by fdcg27
We're probably on the same page then.
It is the responsibility of the buyer to know what a good market price is before he walks into a store.
If you already have a good price in hand, you can then ask for a reasonable discount from it.
If the store wants to do the deal at your price, great.
If not, you may still save some money over what you already had offered.
I agree with you in that it is silly to spend hours grinding out the last hundred bucks on a deal.
I have things I'd rather do as do you.
I suspect those who think they're really working a dealer over have no idea what a good price is to begin with and only end up screwing themselves.
A savvy horse trader already knows what he has to pay going in. You cannot negotiate from ignorance.


Agree 100%.
 
Originally Posted by fdcg27
I suspect those who think they're really working a dealer over have no idea what a good price is to begin with and only end up screwing themselves.
A savvy horse trader already knows what he has to pay going in. You cannot negotiate from ignorance.


I begrudge not a single person who is committed to doing business with me but if you are not committed and want to play games that waste your time and mine, I would just as soon see you leave and never have anything to do with you again. I value my time to the point that I don't want to waste your time.

I find that you, as the salesperson, are either selling a car or you are being sold yourself on a line of BS. Unfortunately in this business you do deal with a lot of ignorant people that act awfully ignorant and often times it is because they know that they have the buying power, however, they want to leverage that to act in bad faith.
 
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Originally Posted by Ignatius
fdcg27 said:
I suspect those who think they're really working a dealer over have no idea what a good price is to begin with and only end up screwing themselves.
A savvy horse trader already knows what he has to pay going in. You cannot negotiate from ignorance.


I begrudge not a single person who is committed to doing business with me but if you are not committed and want to play games that waste your time and mine, I would just as soon see you leave and never have anything to do with you again. I value my time to the point that I don't want to waste your time.

I find that you, as the salesperson, are either selling a car or you are being sold yourself on a line of BS. Unfortunately in this business you do deal with a lot of ignorant people that act awfully ignorant and often times it is because they know that they have the buying power, however, they want to leverage that to act in bad faith.[/quote]

Yea- kind of the like the non sense that happens in the finance office. Talk about pushing products that are useless-sounds like "bad faith" to me.

I had a line item for $600.00 show up on the contract in the finance office once-without my consent. It was for "Key FOB" insurance.

Luckily the wife (ex-school teacher) caught it.
 
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I don't think sales people need to go but I do think prices need to be fixed. The price on the car is the price on car no matter where you go and the sales person's job is simply to show you the car, answer questions and get you to sign on the dotted line.

This would force sales people to focus on volume and experience and not trying to squeeze every last penny out of you.

Many buyers go into a purchase knowing exactly what others have paid for the same car and the process of sales people trying to take advantage of you when you've clearly done you homework is just disheartening. I don't even speak to someone in person until I've already established over email that they are not creeps and they are in the ballpark for what I want to pay. I don't expect dealerships to take a loss on the sale but I also don't need some [censored] trying to squeeze me for $3K above MSRP when I know the rest of America is paying $3K under MSRP.

I have a friend who is one of the #1 Subaru car salesmen in the US. His strategy is volume over the Internet. He does almost all of his negotiating over the internet because he can "work with" multiple people at one time. He also gives them really good first offers because all he cares about is volume (and getting the dealer holdback) and wasting as little time as possible per sale. He makes a GREAT living doing it this way with AWESOME reviews (people are shocked his initial price is lower than their final goal) while his colleagues walk the floor making many fewer sales trying to squeeze every last penny out of customers.
 
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Originally Posted by Ignatius
Originally Posted by MCompact

I also noticed that some of the wealthiest buyer were the most obstinate. One sale I assisted with was the wife of a well-known TV personality with a net worth of several million dollars. The couple argued over $20/month on a 36 month X3 lease.


The most typical mindsets of these kinds of people are:

"I am entitled to my demands"
"I am the person who is going to get the 'best deal possible'"
"I am not going to let you 'rip me off'"

Usually what it comes down to is people who believe something when the reality is that they don't know jack. I have heard things like, "no matter what the price is, I know you are making a HUGE profits of this sale" which often times is completely ridiculous.

I remember the second used Subaru I sold, my store LOST $6000 selling that car and while that is not the norm it happens to probably every store often enough to dispel the notion that every car sold = massive profit = I am getting "ripped off" mentality.
 
Originally Posted by Ignatius


The most typical mindsets of these kinds of people are:

"I am entitled to my demands"
"I am the person who is going to get the 'best deal possible'"
"I am not going to let you 'rip me off'"



Well said!

Folks want to be able to brag that they are too smart to let any old car salesman get the better of them. Then they offer all of their car buying tips to their friends and explaining to them that they were ripped off because they aren't as smart as they are. They will finish off by saying that they got it cheaper than anyone else. Or at least the salesman played the part and let them believe that.
 
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