BMW ATF Lifetime Fluid

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Originally Posted by Patrick0525
Applies to all manufactures that market artificially low maintenance costs. I lost count number of times work colleagues who refused a fluid replacement based on their manufacturers' maintenance schedule timeline. ie Toyota doesn't have it as scheduled item.

To my work colleagues: "Get Real!"

40-50K mi is the recommended ATF OCI for non-towing applications.

BMW ATF

It is not, 60-75k per ZF.
 
All cars need transmission fluid changed if you plan to keep them. I got my Passat with 30,000 miles last July and changed it recently at 41,000. I know that sounds early but some of these cars are notorious for valve body problems. Why the valve bodies are so bad is a mystery to me. These cars and similar ones would be some of the best there are if they didn't have those problems. It may be a good idea to clean the pan out too since that has not been done on mine. That is a good idea on most cars too but very messy on some.
 
Originally Posted by slacktide_bitog
ZF uses a stupid plastic pan that has to be replaced every time! Why can't they just use a regular metal pan (that you don't have to replace) with a normal drain plug?
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Lifetime ATF was a thing even before they started pushing "lifetime ATF" in the first place! Most cars go never have their transmission fluid changed and go to the junkyard on their original factory-fill ATF
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The difference is that a Toyota can last 300k without changing the ATF. A BMW can't
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Originally Posted by twoheeldrive
... and ZF is just mad because BMW is not selling their oil. ZF makes a lot of money selling their over priced oil and filters. No wonder they are pushing for frequent service.


You can use Maxlife with no problem, so you don't have to worry about that. The real issue is the stupid pan they used which has to be replaced! The ZF-brand ATF and the BMW-brand ATF are made by a third party, most likely Pento$in. Pentosin is known for their unreasonably-expensive fluids, usually for German cars. Expensive whether the label says ZF, BMW, or Pentosin on the bottle.

ZF branded fluid is probably made by Pentosin (Fuchs).
BMW branded is now made by SOPUS for NA market and Shell for EU and rest of the world. Actually, BMW branded ATF now says Made in USA and I think it even says SOPUS.
 
Are you addressing fluid used for the ZF 6-speed or 8-speed transmision?

I've been reading about fluids used for ZF transmissions. There's a lot written about using Maxlife on 6-speeds, but nobody has a low cost alternative for the ZF8 transmission.
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
ZF branded fluid is probably made by Pentosin (Fuchs).
BMW branded is now made by SOPUS for NA market and Shell for EU and rest of the world. Actually, BMW branded ATF now says Made in USA and I think it even says SOPUS.

Not surprised since the base fluid for the ZF8HP appears to be Shell L-12108.
 
Originally Posted by Kestas
Every time I query the masses, the common belief is that transmission fluid is indeed filled-for-life. This is an uphill battle for us to educate the public.

I work with transmission and power takeoff unit designers, where my job is to determine why bearings fail. Usually the root cause is excessive debris denting. Every opportunity I get, I try to convince them to incorporate at least one fluid change around 30K to 40K to get rid of break-in debris, as Mercedes did when they modified their fill-for-life stance. Their answer is to force all suppliers to guarantee a maximum level of cleanliness in their parts for production. This ignores the debris that is generated during break-in. It also forces bearing manufacturers to supercharge their material. No real estate is given to make bearings bigger.

I understand their position, because the motoring public doesn't want to hear that they have to spend an afternoon taking their car in and spend $200+ on a perfectly good working car for this service, especially when the competitor doesn't require it. This fill-for-life is now engrained into the motoring public's minds.

This means that only us enthusiasts and other people who have critical thinking skills will be changing transmission fluid (if these other people can convince their dealers to do so.... another uphill task).


The reality is that for the majority of car owners these transmissions with "lifetime" fill enjoy a long service life without issues. Even ZF states "maintenance free" for normal operating conditions. Oh and $200+ ATF service? LOL...More like $900.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Patrick0525
Applies to all manufactures that market artificially low maintenance costs. I lost count number of times work colleagues who refused a fluid replacement based on their manufacturers' maintenance schedule timeline. ie Toyota doesn't have it as scheduled item.

To my work colleagues: "Get Real!"

40-50K mi is the recommended ATF OCI for non-towing applications.

BMW ATF


That's inaccurate information. See below.

https://aftermarket.zf.com/remotemedia/lol-lubricants/lol-en/lol-te-ml-11-en.pdf


5. Maintenance recommendations ZF automatic transmissions

3/4-speed automatic transmissions:

ZF 3 and 4-speed automatic transmissions must be filled with approved ATF oils according to ZF list of lubricants TE-ML 11,
lubricant class 11A / 11B or with mineral ATF oils according to the former Specification Dexron II / Dexron III by General Motors.
For oil-change intervals consult the vehicle manufacturer's specifications.

5-, 6-, 8- and 9-speed as well as 4HP20 automatic transmissions:

ZF 5-, 6-, 8- and 9-speed as well as the ZF 4HP20 automatic transmissions are filled maintenance-free with specially developed
partially synthetic ATF oils. Maintenance-free fills are intended for normal operating conditions. Especially driving at very high
operating temperatures can result in accelerated aging or increased wear of ATF oils. In case of above-average operating
conditions, such as:
- frequent freeway driving in the upper speed range
- offensive, sporty driving style
- frequent trailer operation

it is recommended to refresh (change) the oil of the automatic transmission every 100,000 km or no later than after 8 years.
In each case, only released ATF oil may be used for oil changes. And oil changes must be performed in accordance with the
relevant specifications.

The exception is the ZF 5HP18 automatic transmission which must be filled differently depending on the version.

The released ATF oils in each case are specified in the ZF Lubricants List TE-ML 11.
 
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Originally Posted by Kestas
Are you addressing fluid used for the ZF 6-speed or 8-speed transmision?

I've been reading about fluids used for ZF transmissions. There's a lot written about using Maxlife on 6-speeds, but nobody has a low cost alternative for the ZF8 transmission.

Hundreds of Ram owners use Maxlife on ZF-8 both mated to gas and diesel. There are even a few UOA's and they look good. A few have close to 200000 miles on the units.
 
I changed the ATF on my 2004 E83 X3 every 60,000 miles. Ditto for the transfer case. However, I never touched either diff. The X3 is currently in the hands of its third owner and just passed 215,000 miles- no final drive issues.
I do service the diffs in my other vehicles.
 
Originally Posted by dave1251
Hundreds of Ram owners use Maxlife on ZF-8 both mated to gas and diesel. There are even a few UOA's and they look good. A few have close to 200000 miles on the units.

That's what I've read. I have to figure out how much of ZF's fluid requirements and recommendations are based on their financial interests and how much on unique technical merit.

I see Valvoline says their Maxlife ATF is "suitable" for ZF Lifeguardfluid 8 applications. I hope it's only because they can't justify a business case for being "approved" and that the fluid has technical merit.
 
Getting approvals especially for Euro vehicles is a no brainier numb exercise - they keep changing it faster than they update their models.
Amsoil/Valvoline/RL are not going to spend top dollars to get it approved for a small tweek for every change the specs update.

Now Toyota doesn't have that problem and wonder if Toyota doesn't even have a approval and license much like Dexron/Mercon.
 
Originally Posted by MaximaGuy
Getting approvals especially for Euro vehicles is a no brainier numb exercise - they keep changing it faster than they update their models.
Amsoil/Valvoline/RL are not going to spend top dollars to get it approved for a small tweek for every change the specs update.

Now Toyota doesn't have that problem and wonder if Toyota doesn't even have a approval and license much like Dexron/Mercon.

Can we get over with this nonsense how approvals are expensive? Average approval is around $3-5000 and no, it is not companies that change approvals often, it is fluid manufacturers that constantly change chemistry of fluid to save a buck. However, every time they change it they have to get approval.
The fact that Valvoline says it is suitable and NOT approved, means that Valvoline does not want to venture into "approved" territory, for whatever reasons.
 
Originally Posted by Kestas
Originally Posted by dave1251
Hundreds of Ram owners use Maxlife on ZF-8 both mated to gas and diesel. There are even a few UOA's and they look good. A few have close to 200000 miles on the units.

That's what I've read. I have to figure out how much of ZF's fluid requirements and recommendations are based on their financial interests and how much on unique technical merit.

I see Valvoline says their Maxlife ATF is "suitable" for ZF Lifeguardfluid 8 applications. I hope it's only because they can't justify a business case for being "approved" and that the fluid has technical merit.

Most people I know that used Maxlife in BMW's did 25-30k change intervals.
 
Originally Posted by Kestas
Are you addressing fluid used for the ZF 6-speed or 8-speed transmision?

I've been reading about fluids used for ZF transmissions. There's a lot written about using Maxlife on 6-speeds, but nobody has a low cost alternative for the ZF8 transmission.

Valvoline is used a lot for both ZF6 and ZF8. However, I know people cut drastically interval on Maxlife.
I personally used on my BMW diesel ZF6 and never wanted to venture into Maxlife territory.
 
Originally Posted by edyvw

Can we get over with this nonsense how approvals are expensive? Average approval is around $3-5000 and no, it is not companies that change approvals often, it is fluid manufacturers that constantly change chemistry of fluid to save a buck. However, every time they change it they have to get approval.
The fact that Valvoline says it is suitable and NOT approved, means that Valvoline does not want to venture into "approved" territory, for whatever reasons.


Pl. let the audience know how getting a license would be the cost you have highlighted. I spoke to all 3 companies and they said it is an expensive exercise - if it was that cheap we should have T-IV/WS license # on these bottles right. Maybe you should call them and find out how much it costs.
 
Originally Posted by MaximaGuy
Pl. let the audience know how getting a license would be the cost you have highlighted. I spoke to all 3 companies and they said it is an expensive exercise - if it was that cheap we should have T-IV/WS license # on these bottles right. Maybe you should call them and find out how much it costs.

Really? An outside company such as Valvoline could get a license for T-IV or WS?
 
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by MaximaGuy
Pl. let the audience know how getting a license would be the cost you have highlighted. I spoke to all 3 companies and they said it is an expensive exercise - if it was that cheap we should have T-IV/WS license # on these bottles right. Maybe you should call them and find out how much it costs.

Really? An outside company such as Valvoline could get a license for T-IV or WS?


That is exactly what I am asking if the licensing is so cheap as documented by kschachn, then the OTC manufacturers would have it by now or worse off Toyota doesn't allow for licensing.
 
Originally Posted by MaximaGuy
That is exactly what I am asking if the licensing is so cheap as documented by kschachn, then the OTC manufacturers would have it by now or worse off Toyota doesn't allow for licensing.

I assume you mean edyvw, not me. What he is getting at is that often the boutique blenders use that as an excuse for not obtaining certifications, licenses and approvals but in the scheme of things it isn't nearly the cost that they make it out to be - especially for some of the certs.

And as for Toyota T-IV or WS, I haven't seen any licensed products for Asian manufacturers, have you? It's not like the European ones at least from what I've seen. There are no licensed third-party products for Honda ATF DW-1 for example. Anything but the Honda branded product is "recommended" or "suitable for."
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Kestas
Are you addressing fluid used for the ZF 6-speed or 8-speed transmision?

I've been reading about fluids used for ZF transmissions. There's a lot written about using Maxlife on 6-speeds, but nobody has a low cost alternative for the ZF8 transmission.

Valvoline is used a lot for both ZF6 and ZF8. However, I know people cut drastically interval on Maxlife.
I personally used on my BMW diesel ZF6 and never wanted to venture into Maxlife territory.

From what I have read the interval is 30-50K which is a near perfect median for this group. Some members do a drain and fill every 10K.
 
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