Is problem with camphasers an oil issue or a bad design...

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There is a huge problem with Ford F150 and any platform they have the 3.5 liter Ecoboost engine. My vehicle was in the shop for 2 months and yes it was painful. Here is a video of the pain:



The diagnosis was faulty camphasers and stretched timing chain. The amount of work to replace everything was substantial and I think at some point they had the body off to access the engine.

I had religiously changed my oil with Valvoline Full Synthetic Maxlife every 7000 mile.

My question is there anything I could have done differently with the oil or oil changes? From reading this board I know certain oils shear and camphasers are sensitive to viscosity.

I was reading the faq on Shell Gas Truck and thinking that might be ideal as its a thicker than most other 5w30s.

Lastly I will admit when I brought this up on Ford related message boards the thread gets locked because no one wants to hear about problems with their truck. Im not looking to poopooing the Ford brand or the F150. Just need answers...
 
Originally Posted by donnyj08
How many total miles were on the engine? Ford has had phaser and chain issues in the past especially on the 5.4L engines.

About 85000 miles...
 
I done quite a few.....All four Phasers, & All 3 Chains & Tensioners. ALL of them showed signs of neglect, heavy varnish, & sludge.
7000 mile OCI's might be a bit much for high HP, DI/Turbocharged engine with such a complicated cam drive system??

This one was really bad! Believe it or not....Cold start rattle was the only symptom, No Cam/Valve/VCT Timing DTC's & the Timing Chains were in decent shape.
*I was able to clean the VCT solenoids (Berrymans Chem Dip) soaking just the spool valve part on the solenoids.
*The filter was completely clogged allowing it to bypass sending sludge into the VCT Solenoids.
*Pulled the oil pan & flushed the engine with Kerosene.

I was able to do this job in 2 days....No reason for a shop to keep your truck for 2 months! Pulling the cab on a F150 is very easy & was designed to be so!!

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
 
Interested in what thread got locked and why. Lots of threads on this with tons of hate. Plenty warranted too. I had a 04 5.4 3v changed solenoid and that was a cheap jackpot for me. Never had another issue...I should say my issue was ticking.

I have a 15 5.0 and has been zero issues. And frankly I expect zero issues for a 50k truck.

You dont mention particulars. What year? What oil and what OCi? History of oils and OCI.

No utopia here but I do ask and I want to hear. Ford trucks since 97 have been really good to me. I see plenty that Ford has not done well with as well.

Can you give us more to go off?
 
I've had a 2009 5.4 3V 5.4 as well as my current truck, a 3.5l eco 2016 F150. Neither had phaser problems. Both were run on Castrol 0w40 and changed at MAXIMUM 5000 miles.

The first gen 3.5 eco has a LONG timing chain that goes up both bank of cylinders. Are you the first owner of the Navigator? Do you know its history? The soot in the direct injection eco can play a roll in wearing the chain and those particles aren't filtered by standard oil filters.
 
Originally Posted by clinebarger
I done quite a few.....All four Phasers, & All 3 Chains & Tensioners. ALL of them showed signs of neglect, heavy varnish, & sludge.
7000 mile OCI's might be a bit much for high HP, DI/Turbocharged engine with such a complicated cam drive system??

This one was really bad! Believe it or not....Cold start rattle was the only symptom, No Cam/Valve/VCT Timing DTC's & the Timing Chains were in decent shape.
*I was able to clean the VCT solenoids (Berrymans Chem Dip) soaking just the spool valve part on the solenoids.
*The filter was completely clogged allowing it to bypass sending sludge into the VCT Solenoids.
*Pulled the oil pan & flushed the engine with Kerosene.

I was able to do this job in 2 days....No reason for a shop to keep your truck for 2 months! Pulling the cab on a F150 is very easy & was designed to be so!!

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]



Do you recall how many miles were on this one? Reading here on Bitog 10K OCI's seem to be a walk in the park type recommendation for synthetic oil, 5K for dino. You're saying even 7K is too much for this setup. I agree with you 100%, even with synthetic oils. Some of these DI turbo engines are prime candidates for severe service intervals with a synthetic oil no matter how they're driven.
 
In my book that looks like a neglected engine. The sludge and varnish look like a cheap conventional was used instead of a full syn. Is that a gen2 or gen 1 engine? If Valvoline syn can't do any better than that over 7k OCIs there's no way I could recommend it.
 
Originally Posted by demarpaint

Do you recall how many miles were on this one? Reading here on Bitog 10K OCI's seem to be a walk in the park type recommendation for synthetic oil, 5K for dino. You're saying even 7K is too much for this setup. I agree with you 100%, even with synthetic oils. Some of these DI turbo engines are prime candidates for severe service intervals with a synthetic oil no matter how they're driven.


2012 F150 126,xxx miles, Bought at a auction, No idea about the maintenance history. 10K OCI's are a walk in the park for many engine designs, I just don't believe this is one of them.

Now this is a really neglected engine in the pictures....But didn't have any noticeable Timing Chain stretch, The tensioner just had one "ring" on it & was not near it's maximum travel.
 
#1. It was 85000 miles on a.Gen 2 engine...2018 Navigator L

#2. Vehicle is a work truck in the livery industry.

#3. Ford in its manual said the engine would have no problems with 10k mile OCIs so I went 7k mile changes using Valvoline full synthetic maxlife.

#4. The delays at the dealership were as a result of part backorders. I was told I was like 1000 on the list for some of the parts. Dealership treated me ugly...not happy to see this repair project. Also only a certified tech could do the work.

#5. Yeah the 5 liter is probably a better engine until Fords turbo technology improves. If I had a choice would rather go with a natural aspirated engine.

#6. If you go into a forum dedicated to a certain brand or model dont bring issues. It was funny. I honestly thought Ford owned the F150 forum as I was not welcome to post problems about the trucks. As soon as I posted problems mods were right on top of me.

#7. Took dealership two repair tries to get it right.

Lastly here is part of the dealership parts list. An extensive job.

Im going to experiment with different oils and have Blackstone tests run.

[Linked Image]
 
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I am currently trying Amsoil 5W-30 and next will be Shell Gas Truck 5W-30. Going to send samples to Blackstone and will post them here.

I notice the Shell Gas Truck oil CST@100 degrees is 11.8 which is 1 higher than the Motorcraft factory fill. Its a thicker oil which might be better suited for this work.

Im going to take a science based approach based on lab data versus anything else...
 
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I found a thread from the F150 forum where a poster talked about using a 5W30 that is on the thicker side of the 5w30 viscosity range to help keep it in spec as the oil shears in the turbo engine. This is what gave me the idea of using Shell Gas Truck. I have never used Shell brands so this will be new for me. Not that Shell is bad but it simply never came to mind grabbing a big bottle of Shell off the Walmart shelf.

When your work truck is sidelined for 2 months you kind of look for preventative measures. It was painful and getting treated badly by Ford enthusiasts at the dealer or on a forum didnt help. I know you guys love the trucks but these are big problems for me...serious money losing problems and Im the victim.

https://www.f150forum.com/f70/ecoboost-oil-report-259723/index4/
 
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Ford should eat some of the cost for you, it's two years old.
 
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Originally Posted by clinebarger
Originally Posted by demarpaint

Do you recall how many miles were on this one? Reading here on Bitog 10K OCI's seem to be a walk in the park type recommendation for synthetic oil, 5K for dino. You're saying even 7K is too much for this setup. I agree with you 100%, even with synthetic oils. Some of these DI turbo engines are prime candidates for severe service intervals with a synthetic oil no matter how they're driven.


2012 F150 126,xxx miles, Bought at a auction, No idea about the maintenance history. 10K OCI's are a walk in the park for many engine designs, I just don't believe this is one of them.

Now this is a really neglected engine in the pictures....But didn't have any noticeable Timing Chain stretch, The tensioner just had one "ring" on it & was not near it's maximum travel.

Thanks for the update. 126k is a baby. LOL Yes it appears to be neglected.

As you say a 10K OCI can be a walk in the park for many designs. I would just add under the right conditions. I do agree this design is not one of them.
 
Originally Posted by Navi
I found a thread from the F150 forum where a poster talked about using a 5W30 that is on the thicker side of the 5w30 viscosity range to help keep it in spec as the oil shears in the turbo engine. This is what gave me the idea of using Shell Gas Truck. I have never used Shell brands so this will be new for me. Not that Shell is bad but it simply never came to mind grabbing a big bottle of Shell off the Walmart shelf.

When your work truck is sidelined for 2 months you kind of look for preventative measures. It was painful and getting treated badly by Ford enthusiasts at the dealer or on a forum didnt help. I know you guys love the trucks but these are big problems for me...serious money losing problems and Im the victim.

https://www.f150forum.com/f70/ecoboost-oil-report-259723/index4/

Have you checked the specs on Mobil 1 ESP 5W30?
 
The truck has a 150k/4 year warranty, but the problem is this vehicle typically brings in over $500 a day in revenue. Its top day was about $2000 during the summer of 2018.

I looked at the Euro oils like the Mobil 1 ESP, etc and they are top grade oils. It seems like the Euro oils are built to a higher standard than the American variants. However its just like me using Rotella T6. They dont have the same American certifications and not built for the truck. They might do very well in the truck but I have that uncertainty.

I am guessing the Shell Gas Truck oil might be the best tool and as the name suggests they designed it for a truck. We shall see I will pick it up at Walmart today.

All oils are good but now its just a matter of the best oil for the job. For turbo Fords its probably best to be a little bit thicker when considering the fuel dilution I read about...

The 5 liter Ford is old school proven engine but the turbo 6 still new. It might take another 5 years to mature.
 
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Originally Posted by Navi
The truck has a 150k/4 year warranty, but the problem is this vehicle typically brings in over $500 a day in revenue. Its top day was about $2000 during the summer of 2018.

I looked at the Euro oils like the Mobil 1 ESP, etc and they are top grade oils. It seems like the Euro oils are built to a higher standard than the American variants. However its just like me using Rotella T6. They dont have the same American certifications and not built for the truck. They might do very well in the truck but I have that uncertainty.

I am guessing the Shell Gas Truck oil might be the best tool and as the name suggests they designed it for a truck. We shall see I will pick it up at Walmart today.

All oils are good but now its just a matter of the best oil for the job. For turbo Fords its probably best to be a little bit thicker when considering the fuel dilution I read about...

The 5 liter Ford is old school proven engine but the turbo 6 still new. It might take another 5 years to mature.

I have an Ace in the hole so to speak when it comes to warranty work, so I can use what I want for oil, but I feel your pain. IMO ESP would be a great choice in your application. The Shell product should do well too. Good luck with it going forward!!
 
At first I thought it was a mistake seeing an 2018 with that many miles, but now I understand that it's a fleet/livery vehicle, which makes sense. Heck even then that's a lot of miles!

I do think 7,000 mile oil changes are too much for this vehicle. Keep in mind that when dealing with livery vehicles, those are not just 7,000 miles, they're also hours, hours of idling, hours in traffic. Tough life.

Years ago I was thinking about purchasing a Cadillac CTS - my brother in law was a service manager for Caddy...he warned, don't do it! You'll be replacing the chain, they all stretch, it's the oil change service interval. And this is what cracked me up, he said the only Caddy's that he saw that didn't have their chains stretch (and need replacement) were from the rental car agency they serviced from down the street. Weird I thought. He told me the rental car company was religious with their oil changes...every 4,000 miles...and they only used the cheap conventional oil. They would not pay for the good stuff, but they also would not go the 7,500 mile interval that Caddy claimed the vehicle could go. They never had one single chain failure. I thought that was an interesting story.
 
Originally Posted by Navi
BTW Shell has a $10 rebate so 5 quarte is $11...

Tough to beat that price.
 
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