Is Z&P concentration extrapolable from SAPS % ?

[FCD]

A couple weeks ago i decided to try a new interesting oil i found out for my Capri.

The oil in question is Repsol Elite Super 20W-50.

It's a Syn-blend 20W-50, that meets SL/CF, ACEA A3/B4 and MB 229.1

SAPS % is a high 1.6
TBN is quite strong at 10.8

Now, i haven't been able to find any clue as to what kind of Z&P concentration it might have... however with such a high SAPS level surely it must be +1000ppm??

What do you think.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

These are the thresholds for zinc and phos content for an API SL rated oil is (Phos 994ppm) and (Zn 1182ppm). The high BN of that oil makes sense given the high SAPS but BN isn't everything, right?

Can you derive Phos/Zn content from a SAPS%, dunno. Above my pay grade...but one question I have is how would you know that high SAPS is due to zinc in the form of ZDDP/ZDTP and not because it's a low(er) quality base oil with high(er) sulfur content??

Plus can't phosphorus (in the oil) come from other sources like corrosion inhibitors, friction modifiers, antioxidants and not necessarily from the ZDDP form?

Fwiw, I looked at a handful of SL rated oils on PQIA and while some did have high (er) Phos & Zn levels, not all did...so carrying a SL rating was not a guarantee you're getting high levels of zinc/phos.

 

[Garak]

I would say it's probable. Of course, without a VOA, you'd never know. But, if you showed me all those numbers, particularly that TBN with such a high SAPS, if I were forced to guess, I'd expect the concentrations to be above 1000 ppm. The only qualifier I'd have is if the base stock were particularly high in sulfur for some inexplicable reason.

 

[JAG]

SAPS is sulfated ash, phosphorus, and sulfur. That's three different things. The ash part only exists when the oil combusts. In the test to get the percent weight of ash, sulfuric acid is used to help remove any substances other than metallic "ash" elements. The 1.6% number mentioned is the sulfated ash percent weight, not the SAPS %, which does not exist.

There is no direct equation that describes the relationship between only sulfated ash and ZDDP concentration since the former comes from ZDDP (the zinc portion), calcium, magnesium, molybdenum, and any other part of the additive package that contains metals. I remember a thread years ago that contained a formula for the sulfated ash given the concentration of every metallic element in the oil. To know that, you need a VOA and that will directly give you the zinc concentration anyway.

But common sense and knowledge of many oils can be applied to get a ballpark estimate. An oil with a very high 1.6% sulfated ash likely contains much more ZDDP than most oils sold today. That's further reinforced by the ACEA and MB specifications this oil meets. Such oils typically have at least 950 PPM of zinc. The TBN is on the high side but not as high as M1 0W-40 ( assuming they used the same test method). So it's likely that this oil's very high ash test result is not largely due to a huge detergent concentration. I doubt it's loaded with a huge amount molybdenum because such oils typically don't have that. So that leaves ZDDP as the most likely source of an extra large dose of ash-forming metal source.

 

[Garak]

JAG did a much clearer explanation than I did. I should have caught that 1.6 would be SA, rather than SAPS. An example that also fits and is a nice contrast to the oil in the original post is something like an E6, E7, E9 type oil, which will have TBN in said range, with SA of 1 or less, and phosphorus at 800 ppm or less, and probably a magnesium additive package.

 

[FCD]

Thanks for the replies.

I just found out too that this oils meets VW 501.01 / 505.00

Do they have any constraints on Z&P levels?

 

[FCD]

Oh and thanks for clarifying that SA and SAPS is not the same thing, i didn't know that.

 

[Garak]

According to Afton, 501.01 has a minimum phosphorus level of 0.09% and 505.00 at 0.07%. The 505.00 limits SA to 0.8, for reference. There will be an upper limit on phosphorus since 505.00 is based up ACEA C3. ACEA C3 limits phosphorus to a minimum of 0.07% with a maximum of 0.09%.

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted by JAG
SAPS is sulfated ash, phosphorus, and sulfur. That's three different things. The ash part only exists when the oil combusts. In the test to get the percent weight of ash, sulfuric acid is used to help remove any substances other than metallic "ash" elements. The 1.6% number mentioned is the sulfated ash percent weight, not the SAPS %, which does not exist.

There is no direct equation that describes the relationship between only sulfated ash and ZDDP concentration since the former comes from ZDDP (the zinc portion), calcium, magnesium, molybdenum, and any other part of the additive package that contains metals. I remember a thread years ago that contained a formula for the sulfated ash given the concentration of every metallic element in the oil. To know that, you need a VOA and that will directly give you the zinc concentration anyway.

But common sense and knowledge of many oils can be applied to get a ballpark estimate. An oil with a very high 1.6% sulfated ash likely contains much more ZDDP than most oils sold today. That's further reinforced by the ACEA and MB specifications this oil meets. Such oils typically have at least 950 PPM of zinc. The TBN is on the high side but not as high as M1 0W-40 ( assuming they used the same test method). So it's likely that this oil's very high ash test result is not largely due to a huge detergent concentration. I doubt it's loaded with a huge amount molybdenum because such oils typically don't have that. So that leaves ZDDP as the most likely source of an extra large dose of ash-forming metal source.

Thanks,

 

[SR5]

Hi FCD,

Here are some Penrite products for comparison

Penrite 5W30 Full Synthetic
API SL, ACEA A5/B5, Ford WSS-M2C913-D
KV100 = 9.6 cSt, TBN = 10.1 , Zinc = 1050 ppm, SA = 1.09 %

Penrite 10W40 Full Synthetic
API SN/CF, ACEA A3/B4, BMW LL-01, MB 229.5, JASO MA
KV100 = 14.9 cSt, TBN = 10.2 , Zinc = 1080 ppm, SA = 1.21 %

Penrite Vantage 10W40 semi-synthetic
It's API SN/CF, ACEA A3/B4, MB 229.3, VW 502/505
KV100 = 13.5 cSt, TBN = 11.0, Zinc = 1220 ppm, SA = 1.1 %,

Penrite HPR Diesel 10 (10W40) semi-synthetic
It's API CI-4/SL, ACEA A3/B4
KV100 = 14.7 cSt, TBN = 11.1, Zinc = 1090 ppm, SA = 1.4%,

To me the relationship between Zn, TBN and SA% is not clear.
The only way to be sure is contact the company and ask them or pay for a VOA.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by SR5
Hi FCD,

Here are some Penrite products for comparison

Penrite 5W30 Full Synthetic
API SL, ACEA A5/B5, Ford WSS-M2C913-D
KV100 = 9.6 cSt, TBN = 10.1 , Zinc = 1050 ppm, SA = 1.09 %

Penrite 10W40 Full Synthetic
API SN/CF, ACEA A3/B4, BMW LL-01, MB 229.5, JASO MA
KV100 = 14.9 cSt, TBN = 10.2 , Zinc = 1080 ppm, SA = 1.21 %

Penrite Vantage 10W40 semi-synthetic
It's API SN/CF, ACEA A3/B4, MB 229.3, VW 502/505
KV100 = 13.5 cSt, TBN = 11.0, Zinc = 1220 ppm, SA = 1.1 %,

Penrite HPR Diesel 10 (10W40) semi-synthetic
It's API CI-4/SL, ACEA A3/B4
KV100 = 14.7 cSt, TBN = 11.1, Zinc = 1090 ppm, SA = 1.4%,

To me the relationship between Zn, TBN and SA% is not clear.
The only way to be sure is contact the company and ask them or pay for a VOA.

In re to the Vantage 10w40...I thought zinc was capped at apprx 800ppm beginning with API SM? How can that carry a API SN at it's 1220ppm level?..is it for off highway or race use?

 

[ka9mnx]

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
In re to the Vantage 10w40...I thought zinc was capped at apprx 800ppm beginning with API SM? How can that carry a API SN at it's 1220ppm level?..is it for off highway or race use?

x40 is not restricted to the SN requirements.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
In re to the Vantage 10w40...I thought zinc was capped at apprx 800ppm beginning with API SM? How can that carry a API SN at it's 1220ppm level?..is it for off highway or race use?

If it were restricted to off-road or racing it would not have an API license.

But just to be clear, API SN is the only thing it has. It is not ACEA A3/B3 nor A3/B4 per their website and does not have any of the approvals in that list.

This applies only to the semi-synthetic product, the full synthetic is not API SN nor the rest.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
In re to the Vantage 10w40...I thought zinc was capped at apprx 800ppm beginning with API SM? How can that carry a API SN at it's 1220ppm level?..is it for off highway or race use?

If it were restricted to off-road or racing it would not have an API license.

True ðŸ‘.. forgot that.

Originally Posted by ka9mnx

x40 is not restricted to the SN requirements.

Right..its grades up to 10w30, no? Good catch..tx