Recent Topics
Deep Sumps
by RC_Kendall - 09/20/19 07:24 AM
Menards Formula Shell
by Duffyjr - 09/20/19 05:35 AM
Best Nubuck protector/waterproof
er

by PW01 - 09/20/19 04:14 AM
Aircraft Tempest Spin-EZ AA-48108-2
by Capt - 09/19/19 11:22 PM
Emission Readiness monitors
by bowlofturtle - 09/19/19 10:12 PM
Thoughts on the GM strike?
by Vern_in_IL - 09/19/19 09:37 PM
tropical storm imelda blows up everynight?
by motor_oil_madman - 09/19/19 09:12 PM
2017 Corvette / Mobil 1 ESP 0w40 / 5.2k mi
by dparm - 09/19/19 08:57 PM
2019 Lexus UX 250h
by Direct_Rejection - 09/19/19 08:56 PM
Gas theft
by tahoe_hybrid - 09/19/19 08:04 PM
Aisin 09G transmission fluid?
by sloinker - 09/19/19 07:44 PM
Oil for 2005 BMW X3
by Nyquist - 09/19/19 07:34 PM
Golden Eagles Take Down Deer and Wolves
by buster - 09/19/19 07:31 PM
P21S Windshield Washer Booster
by mclasser - 09/19/19 06:30 PM
Why warm up oil before a UOA sample is taken?
by paulri - 09/19/19 06:21 PM
Newest Members
Jeojevero, Repertech, Bluttoboy, Srfridd, V1313
69336 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
88 registered members (ArrestMeRedZ, alarmguy, aquariuscsm, 4WD, A310, 11 invisible), 1,343 guests, and 26 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics294,807
Posts5,066,996
Members69,336
Most Online3,532
Jul 30th, 2019
Donate to BITOG
Print Thread
Hop To
Is Z&P concentration extrapolable from SAPS % ? #5190025 08/18/19 01:36 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,138
F
FordCapriDriver Offline OP
OP Offline
F
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,138

A couple weeks ago i decided to try a new interesting oil i found out for my Capri.

The oil in question is Repsol Elite Super 20W-50.

It's a Syn-blend 20W-50, that meets SL/CF, ACEA A3/B4 and MB 229.1

SAPS % is a high 1.6
TBN is quite strong at 10.8

Now, i haven't been able to find any clue as to what kind of Z&P concentration it might have... however with such a high SAPS level surely it must be +1000ppm??

What do you think.


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6 - Repsol Elite Super 20W-50
1988 Ford Escort XR3i Cabrio - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO

Re: Is Z&P concentration extrapolable from SAPS % ? [Re: FordCapriDriver] #5190078 08/18/19 06:25 AM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 1,716
M
Mad_Hatter Offline
Offline
M
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 1,716
These are the thresholds for zinc and phos content for an API SL rated oil is (Phos 994ppm) and (Zn 1182ppm). The high BN of that oil makes sense given the high SAPS but BN isn't everything, right?

Can you derive Phos/Zn content from a SAPS%, dunno. Above my pay grade...but one question I have is how would you know that high SAPS is due to zinc in the form of ZDDP/ZDTP and not because it's a low(er) quality base oil with high(er) sulfur content??

Plus can't phosphorus (in the oil) come from other sources like corrosion inhibitors, friction modifiers, antioxidants and not necessarily from the ZDDP form?

Fwiw, I looked at a handful of SL rated oils on PQIA and while some did have high (er) Phos & Zn levels, not all did...so carrying a SL rating was not a guarantee you're getting high levels of zinc/phos.

Last edited by Mad_Hatter; 08/18/19 06:29 AM.
Re: Is Z&P concentration extrapolable from SAPS % ? [Re: FordCapriDriver] #5193302 08/21/19 08:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 28,128
G
Garak Offline
Offline
G
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 28,128
I would say it's probable. Of course, without a VOA, you'd never know. But, if you showed me all those numbers, particularly that TBN with such a high SAPS, if I were forced to guess, I'd expect the concentrations to be above 1000 ppm. The only qualifier I'd have is if the base stock were particularly high in sulfur for some inexplicable reason.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Is Z&P concentration extrapolable from SAPS % ? [Re: FordCapriDriver] #5193350 08/21/19 09:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,289
J
JAG Offline
Offline
J
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,289
SAPS is sulfated ash, phosphorus, and sulfur. That’s three different things. The ash part only exists when the oil combusts. In the test to get the percent weight of ash, sulfuric acid is used to help remove any substances other than metallic “ash” elements. The 1.6% number mentioned is the sulfated ash percent weight, not the SAPS %, which does not exist.

There is no direct equation that describes the relationship between only sulfated ash and ZDDP concentration since the former comes from ZDDP (the zinc portion), calcium, magnesium, molybdenum, and any other part of the additive package that contains metals. I remember a thread years ago that contained a formula for the sulfated ash given the concentration of every metallic element in the oil. To know that, you need a VOA and that will directly give you the zinc concentration anyway.

But common sense and knowledge of many oils can be applied to get a ballpark estimate. An oil with a very high 1.6% sulfated ash likely contains much more ZDDP than most oils sold today. That’s further reinforced by the ACEA and MB specifications this oil meets. Such oils typically have at least 950 PPM of zinc. The TBN is on the high side but not as high as M1 0W-40 ( assuming they used the same test method). So it’s likely that this oil’s very high ash test result is not largely due to a huge detergent concentration. I doubt it’s loaded with a huge amount molybdenum because such oils typically don’t have that. So that leaves ZDDP as the most likely source of an extra large dose of ash-forming metal source.

Last edited by JAG; 08/21/19 09:13 PM. Reason: Added to it
Re: Is Z&P concentration extrapolable from SAPS % ? [Re: FordCapriDriver] #5193431 08/21/19 10:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 28,128
G
Garak Offline
Offline
G
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 28,128
JAG did a much clearer explanation than I did. I should have caught that 1.6 would be SA, rather than SAPS. An example that also fits and is a nice contrast to the oil in the original post is something like an E6, E7, E9 type oil, which will have TBN in said range, with SA of 1 or less, and phosphorus at 800 ppm or less, and probably a magnesium additive package.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Is Z&P concentration extrapolable from SAPS % ? [Re: FordCapriDriver] #5193504 08/22/19 02:22 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,138
F
FordCapriDriver Offline OP
OP Offline
F
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,138
Thanks for the replies.

I just found out too that this oils meets VW 501.01 / 505.00

Do they have any constraints on Z&P levels?


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6 - Repsol Elite Super 20W-50
1988 Ford Escort XR3i Cabrio - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO

Re: Is Z&P concentration extrapolable from SAPS % ? [Re: FordCapriDriver] #5193507 08/22/19 02:24 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,138
F
FordCapriDriver Offline OP
OP Offline
F
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,138
Oh and thanks for clarifying that SA and SAPS is not the same thing, i didn't know that.


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6 - Repsol Elite Super 20W-50
1988 Ford Escort XR3i Cabrio - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO

Re: Is Z&P concentration extrapolable from SAPS % ? [Re: FordCapriDriver] #5193547 08/22/19 05:23 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 28,128
G
Garak Offline
Offline
G
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 28,128
According to Afton, 501.01 has a minimum phosphorus level of 0.09% and 505.00 at 0.07%. The 505.00 limits SA to 0.8, for reference. There will be an upper limit on phosphorus since 505.00 is based up ACEA C3. ACEA C3 limits phosphorus to a minimum of 0.07% with a maximum of 0.09%.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Is Z&P concentration extrapolable from SAPS % ? [Re: JAG] #5193585 08/22/19 06:46 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,713
Z
zeng Offline
Offline
Z
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,713
Originally Posted by JAG
SAPS is sulfated ash, phosphorus, and sulfur. That’s three different things. The ash part only exists when the oil combusts. In the test to get the percent weight of ash, sulfuric acid is used to help remove any substances other than metallic “ash” elements. The 1.6% number mentioned is the sulfated ash percent weight, not the SAPS %, which does not exist.

There is no direct equation that describes the relationship between only sulfated ash and ZDDP concentration since the former comes from ZDDP (the zinc portion), calcium, magnesium, molybdenum, and any other part of the additive package that contains metals. I remember a thread years ago that contained a formula for the sulfated ash given the concentration of every metallic element in the oil. To know that, you need a VOA and that will directly give you the zinc concentration anyway.

But common sense and knowledge of many oils can be applied to get a ballpark estimate. An oil with a very high 1.6% sulfated ash likely contains much more ZDDP than most oils sold today. That’s further reinforced by the ACEA and MB specifications this oil meets. Such oils typically have at least 950 PPM of zinc. The TBN is on the high side but not as high as M1 0W-40 ( assuming they used the same test method). So it’s likely that this oil’s very high ash test result is not largely due to a huge detergent concentration. I doubt it’s loaded with a huge amount molybdenum because such oils typically don’t have that. So that leaves ZDDP as the most likely source of an extra large dose of ash-forming metal source.

Thanks, thumbsup

Re: Is Z&P concentration extrapolable from SAPS % ? [Re: FordCapriDriver] #5193623 08/22/19 07:55 AM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,950
S
SR5 Offline
Offline
S
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,950
Hi FCD,

Here are some Penrite products for comparison

Penrite 5W30 Full Synthetic
API SL, ACEA A5/B5, Ford WSS-M2C913-D
KV100 = 9.6 cSt, TBN = 10.1 , Zinc = 1050 ppm, SA = 1.09 %

Penrite 10W40 Full Synthetic
API SN/CF, ACEA A3/B4, BMW LL-01, MB 229.5, JASO MA
KV100 = 14.9 cSt, TBN = 10.2 , Zinc = 1080 ppm, SA = 1.21 %

Penrite Vantage 10W40 semi-synthetic
It's API SN/CF, ACEA A3/B4, MB 229.3, VW 502/505
KV100 = 13.5 cSt, TBN = 11.0, Zinc = 1220 ppm, SA = 1.1 %,

Penrite HPR Diesel 10 (10W40) semi-synthetic
It's API CI-4/SL, ACEA A3/B4
KV100 = 14.7 cSt, TBN = 11.1, Zinc = 1090 ppm, SA = 1.4%,

To me the relationship between Zn, TBN and SA% is not clear.
The only way to be sure is contact the company and ask them or pay for a VOA.

Last edited by SR5; 08/22/19 07:55 AM.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Castrol Edge 10W30 A5/B5 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: Is Z&P concentration extrapolable from SAPS % ? [Re: SR5] #5193714 08/22/19 09:43 AM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 1,716
M
Mad_Hatter Offline
Offline
M
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 1,716
Originally Posted by SR5
Hi FCD,

Here are some Penrite products for comparison

Penrite 5W30 Full Synthetic
API SL, ACEA A5/B5, Ford WSS-M2C913-D
KV100 = 9.6 cSt, TBN = 10.1 , Zinc = 1050 ppm, SA = 1.09 %

Penrite 10W40 Full Synthetic
API SN/CF, ACEA A3/B4, BMW LL-01, MB 229.5, JASO MA
KV100 = 14.9 cSt, TBN = 10.2 , Zinc = 1080 ppm, SA = 1.21 %

Penrite Vantage 10W40 semi-synthetic
It's API SN/CF, ACEA A3/B4, MB 229.3, VW 502/505
KV100 = 13.5 cSt, TBN = 11.0, Zinc = 1220 ppm, SA = 1.1 %,

Penrite HPR Diesel 10 (10W40) semi-synthetic
It's API CI-4/SL, ACEA A3/B4
KV100 = 14.7 cSt, TBN = 11.1, Zinc = 1090 ppm, SA = 1.4%,

To me the relationship between Zn, TBN and SA% is not clear.
The only way to be sure is contact the company and ask them or pay for a VOA.

In re to the Vantage 10w40...I thought zinc was capped at apprx 800ppm beginning with API SM? How can that carry a API SN at it's 1220ppm level?..is it for off highway or race use?

Last edited by Mad_Hatter; 08/22/19 09:44 AM.
Re: Is Z&P concentration extrapolable from SAPS % ? [Re: Mad_Hatter] #5193761 08/22/19 10:54 AM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,154
K
ka9mnx Offline
Offline
K
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,154
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
In re to the Vantage 10w40...I thought zinc was capped at apprx 800ppm beginning with API SM? How can that carry a API SN at it's 1220ppm level?..is it for off highway or race use?

x40 is not restricted to the SN requirements.


2005 Ranger 3.0 - SuperTech Syn 5w-30/Motorcraft
2000 4Runner 3.4 - SuperTech Syn 5w-30/Toyota
1997 B2500 Van 3.9 - M1 HM 10w-30/Mopar
1993 F150 4.9 - SuperTech Syn 5w-30/Motorcraft
Re: Is Z&P concentration extrapolable from SAPS % ? [Re: Mad_Hatter] #5193769 08/22/19 11:03 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,135
K
kschachn Offline
Offline
K
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,135
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
In re to the Vantage 10w40...I thought zinc was capped at apprx 800ppm beginning with API SM? How can that carry a API SN at it's 1220ppm level?..is it for off highway or race use?

If it were restricted to off-road or racing it would not have an API license.

But just to be clear, API SN is the only thing it has. It is not ACEA A3/B3 nor A3/B4 per their website and does not have any of the approvals in that list.

This applies only to the semi-synthetic product, the full synthetic is not API SN nor the rest.


1994 BMW 530i, 246K
1996 Honda Accord, 280K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 420K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 281K
Re: Is Z&P concentration extrapolable from SAPS % ? [Re: kschachn] #5193796 08/22/19 11:26 AM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 1,716
M
Mad_Hatter Offline
Offline
M
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 1,716
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
In re to the Vantage 10w40...I thought zinc was capped at apprx 800ppm beginning with API SM? How can that carry a API SN at it's 1220ppm level?..is it for off highway or race use?

If it were restricted to off-road or racing it would not have an API license.

True 👍.. forgot that.

Originally Posted by ka9mnx

x40 is not restricted to the SN requirements.

Right..its grades up to 10w30, no? Good catch..tx

Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™