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#518992 - 10/28/05 03:55 AM Toyota "WS" Lifetime ATF
The Critic Online   crying


Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 19103
Loc: Walnut Creek, CA
For those who are new to this fluid, the Toyota World Standard (WS) ATF is considered lifetime fill in Toyota 4Runner (03+), Tundra, Sequoia, and Prius. It is considered lifetime fill for vehicles operated under normal driving conditions, though, if the vehicle is used for a lot of towing, a fluid change every 60,000 miles is recommended.

Unlike VW/Audi or BMW, who makes it difficult to obtain or charge ridculously high prices, Toyota priced their lifetime fluid very reasonably and has a good distribution system in place, mainly because a change is still required if the vehicle is used for towing.

Note: Although the Corolla, Camry, and other cars now have a "lifetime" ATF, it is not the "WS" ATF that is used in those transmissions. Those transmissions still spec the Toyota T-IV ATF, which is avaliable at most dealers for $4-$5/qt.

Thus, in curiosity, I e-mailed the Toyota dealer today to check on the price of the "WS" ATF:

quote:
Michael,
The World Standard ATF(part # 08886-02305) sells by the gallon for $41.60. We do have it in stock so you can swing on by and pick some up if you need it. Feel free to call or stop by if there is anything else we can help you with. Thanks.

-Charles Linck
Elk Grove Toyota Parts
916-405-4700

Michael

[ October 28, 2005, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: Michael Wan ]

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#518993 - 10/29/05 08:30 AM Re: Toyota "WS" Lifetime ATF
Whimsey Offline


Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 3605
Loc: The Garden State
Call me old fashioned but I don't think that $10.40/quart is "reasonable" for ATF [Roll Eyes] .

Whimsey

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#518994 - 10/29/05 06:52 PM Re: Toyota "WS" Lifetime ATF
Eddie Online   sleepy


Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 8691
Loc: Florida, Cape Coral
Unreasonable price=yes but, what might be the price to pay for trying some fluid that messes up your transmission?

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#518995 - 10/29/05 07:54 PM Re: Toyota "WS" Lifetime ATF
unDummy Offline


Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 8756
Loc: RI
I haven't seen any proof that quality fluids have messed up ANY transmissions. As a former rebuilder, most failures are caused by heat, negligence, and mech/elec failures.

And $4-5 for a quart of T-IV when DexronIII sells for <$2 at your local department or autopart store might be considered pricey.

And, $10 for a quart of WS Group III synth blended ATF is outrageous when most blends like multivehicle or MerconV sell for $3-4.

Full synthetics like M1/RP/Ams/RL/SF/......can all be found for ~$10/quart or less.

OEM ATF's are pricey. And, non-OEM ATFs don't necessarily mess up transmissions.

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#518996 - 10/30/05 08:41 AM Re: Toyota "WS" Lifetime ATF
The Critic Online   crying


Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 19103
Loc: Walnut Creek, CA
Whimsey, lets do a comparison here. Toyota WS is considered lifetime fill under normal driving conditions, but a drain/refill is required every 60,000 miles if the vehicle is used to tow. Compare this to a vehicle that takes Toyota T-IV, but requires a change every 30,000 miles.

In this example, both vehicles take 3.2qts per drain/refill. This comparison is based upon a typical 300,000 mile ownership of the vehicle.

Vehicle A (Toyota WS ATF, 3.2 qts per drain/refill. $42/gal for the fluid)
60,000 miles *5=300,000 miles
5 drain and refills.
3.2 qts per drain/refill*5=16 quarts
16qts/4=4 gals
$42/gal*4=$168


Vehicle B (Toyota T-IV ATF, 3.2 qts per drain/refill. $5/qt for the fluid)
30,000 miles *10=300,000 miles
10 drain and refills.
3.2 qts per drain/refill*10=32 quarts
32qts @ $5/qt=$160

Thus, if you look at the big picture, there is only a $8 cost difference. [Eek!]

unDummy, I don't disagree with you that using a non-OEM ATF won't mess up the transmission. However, there is no aftermarket equivalent Toyota World Standard (WS) ATF. By using a fluid that isn't speced for a particular app, you may damage your transmission OR experience a reduction in shift quality.

Considering that VW/Audi charges $20/qt for theirs and BMW won't sell it to you at all, I'm pretty darn pleased with Toyota's pricing and distribution of this fluid.

Michael

[ October 30, 2005, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Michael Wan ]

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#518997 - 10/29/05 11:27 PM Re: Toyota "WS" Lifetime ATF
unDummy Offline


Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 8756
Loc: RI
I was under the impression that AW was testing group III or blends for the marketplace(the typical consumer not wanting to be bothered with maintenance like Lexus owners which have had this ATF for a while now).
From what rumours I've heard, WS is T-IV synthetic(blend or full unknown---group III very likely). So, IMO, its possible that any blend or synth that can be used in place of T-IV, might work just as well in WS applications.

I also believe that OEM maintenance recommendations suck. If you plan on leasing/selling/tradingin, then follow the owners manual. Why maintain a vehicle you will dump anyway?
If the vehicle will stay in the family for many years, then those maintenance schedules should be adjusted accordingly. More frequent changes are recommended and this is when OEM fluids become costly.
Aftermarket coolers/filters should also be considered if the transmission family or automaker has history of problems.

My tranny gets 2 drain/refills a year or about every 5k miles. 4 quarts of Valvoline MerconV or Pennzoil multivehicle is ~$14. It WILL last 300k miles unlike many that rarely get far with 30k-60k service intervals.
Compare that to what a rebuild, at a competent tranny shop, costs.
IMO, most trannies will survive the warranty period. But, many die not too far after from the neglect recommend by the owners manual.

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#518998 - 10/30/05 12:10 AM Re: Toyota "WS" Lifetime ATF
The Critic Online   crying


Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 19103
Loc: Walnut Creek, CA
quote:
Originally posted by unDummy:
It WILL last 300k miles unlike many that rarely get far with 30k-60k service intervals.
Compare that to what a rebuild, at a competent tranny shop, costs.
IMO, most trannies will survive the warranty period. But, many die not too far after from the neglect recommend by the owners manual.

I'd disagree.

Most ATFs are good for 70-100K easily, and a 30K change interval is already quite conservative. ATF lasts a long time since the system is fairly sealed and little contamination can occur, which often leads to fluid breakdown. ATF's biggest killer is heat/oxidation, which is why a more frequent change interval is needed while towing.

If you look at the 150K+ Automatic Transmission thread, many of the transmissions that have lasted over 150K had a fluid change every 30-50K, and that was with the ancient DexII or DexIII fluids that were no where as good as the current DexIII(H) fluids, or better.

Michael

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#518999 - 11/12/05 09:34 PM Re: Toyota "WS" Lifetime ATF
Pitbull Offline


Registered: 08/15/03
Posts: 396
Loc: Austin
Undummy, I would not maintain my transmission based on rumor. Until a supplier can quarantee that their product was compatible with the "WS" Toyota fluid I would not take chances with my transmission. The Toyota transmission that we are talking about has coolers and Toyota states that even if you tow you only need to change the fluid if the transmission light comes on indicating fluid damage. These new fluids are engineered for the long run. I have a 2004 4runner and I don't tow but I will have it serviced at the 60K mark just for grins and incase I end up keeping it over the 100K mark.

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