DOT disallows Delta ban on Pitbulls as service animals

[pandus13]

Originally Posted by PimTac
The same DOT just changed the rules to allow miniature horses to fly in the cabin too.

If the government is going to allow this then the pet owner should carry the full responsibility in case something happens. The airlines are between a Rock and a hard spot.


Hello PimTac,

In this case, not really:

The ADA laws have 2 recognized trained service animals:
-the all known service dogs
-the less known miniature horses
They are to be considered tools of the owners, but, I think the same ADA laws stat that owners have the responsibility for any damages produced by the animals.

The problem are the comfort animals that could be anything and usually are not trained to do anything, also being scared and tired on crowds and strange noises.
So there go cases related by one of our resident pilots, Astro, like dogs biting or peeing/defecating in the plane.
In the housing market this is a mess because HUD give some really foggy guidelines, but will go full force after landlords with not pets policies.

My opinion, is the Delta ban was insurance produced, but DOT basically just said which law has precedence.(ADA in this case)

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by dja4260
Judge the deed, not the breed.


The breed gets it's judgement from it's deeds. Pitbulls (or any other animal) wouldn't have the reputation they do if it was all made up.

 

[Garak]

Unfortunately, YouTube is a great place to satisfy one's confirmation bias. Whatever one has for a belief, right or wrong, all the confirmation in the world can be found on YouTube.

 

[doitmyself]

If anyone is still interested in the legalities of this discussion about service animals, I just learned that airlines are regulated by the Air Carrier Access Act (ACAA), NOT the ADA: https://www.transportation.gov/indi...mals-including-emotional-support-animals

The ACAA requires airlines to allow both service animals AND emotional support animals on board. No wonder the airlines have their backs against the wall regarding all the silly animals people try to use.

"Under the Air Carrier Access Act (ACAA) a service animal is any animal that is individually trained or able to provide assistance to a person with a disability; or any animal that assists persons with disabilities by providing emotional support."

On the other hand, the ADA distinguishes the difference between service and support animals, the latter not having the privileges of a true service animal: https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

 

[dnewton3]

Originally Posted by doitmyself
If anyone is still interested in the legalities of this discussion about service animals, I just learned that airlines are regulated by the Air Carrier Access Act (ACAA), NOT the ADA: https://www.transportation.gov/indi...mals-including-emotional-support-animals

The ACAA requires airlines to allow both service animals AND emotional support animals on board. No wonder the airlines have their backs against the wall regarding all the silly animals people try to use.

"Under the Air Carrier Access Act (ACAA) a service animal is any animal that is individually trained or able to provide assistance to a person with a disability; or any animal that assists persons with disabilities by providing emotional support."

On the other hand, the ADA distinguishes the difference between service and support animals, the latter not having the privileges of a true service animal: https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

I love it; facts based on real information and not supposition.

Yet another reason i don't fly commercially. Some moron can bring his/her pet (iguana/snake/peacock/bobcat/pitbull/monkey) and disrupt the calm at least, and at worst, cause injury to others. So the individual can be legally happy, at the expense of public safety?

 

[billt460]

https://www.foxnews.com/travel/miniature-horses-allowed-fly-service-animals-dot

It won't be long and they'll start putting corrals where the cheap seats used to be. This is getting insane.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted by billt460


It won't be long and they'll start putting corrals where the cheap seats used to be. This is getting insane.


For people or the animals?

 

[Win]

Originally Posted by doitmyself
If anyone is still interested in the legalities of this discussion about service animals, I just learned that airlines are regulated by the Air Carrier Access Act (ACAA), NOT the ADA: https://www.transportation.gov/indi...mals-including-emotional-support-animals

The ACAA requires airlines to allow both service animals AND emotional support animals on board. No wonder the airlines have their backs against the wall regarding all the silly animals people try to use.

"Under the Air Carrier Access Act (ACAA) a service animal is any animal that is individually trained or able to provide assistance to a person with a disability; or any animal that assists persons with disabilities by providing emotional support.



Wow, if correct, since "any" means "any", and the definition of disability is apparently as loose as a goose, the barn door is thrown wide open ( pardon the pun ).

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted by Dave9
I want anyone with a pit bull put in prison.


Then you are insane and YOU probably belong in prison.

Quote
There is no excuse for the pretend "open mind" that allows vicious killer animals to exist in society. They might as well be lions or crocodiles, and when someone tries to claim "service animal" my thoughts are "mentally incompetent person who can't be allowed to make decisions".

If you live in the desert and are being attacked by lions too often then you need that. If you are not, you are a criminal, immoral, reckless, idiot for owning a pit bull.

When someone asks for money as payment for your debt, do you whip out a razor blade and slash them? As ridiculous as the analogy seems, that is about what it is to have a pit bull if you aren't some shut in antisocial hick living in the woods where you never contact other human beings.

Remember something. There are many great breeds of dog out there. You choose pit bull, you choose to be someone who wants to harm other people. Don't feed me the lies and nonsense about how they are great pets, because there are many other breeds that are better pets. An intelligent person does not choose a pit bull. A person who has ego but is stupid, needs to go in prison for choosing one.

It's no different than if I had an alligator or rabid wolf, I could make excuses about how ideally it's great, when the truth is, it's nothing but a way to attack people. Hence, why owners belong in prison.

Do you need to see pictures of mauled children for my point to seem valid? I don't want to put that out there, I don't want to see those pics again either!


No facts, no thoughts. Just pure, raw emotion.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted by wemay
https://time.com/2891180/kfc-and-the-pit-bull-attack-of-a-little-girl/

"Pit bulls make up only 6% of the dog population, but they're responsible for 68% of dog attacks and 52% of dog-related deaths since 1982, according to research compiled by Merritt Clifton, editor of Animals 24-7, an animal-news organization that focuses on humane work and animal-cruelty prevention."

"Another report published in the April 2011 issue of Annals of Surgery found that one person is killed by a pit bull every 14 days, two people are injured by a pit bull every day, and young children are especially at risk. The report concludes that "these breeds should be regulated in the same way in which other dangerous species, such as leopards, are regulated." That report was shared with TIME by PETA, the world's largest animal-rights organization."


Of course...any dog that bites someone magically becomes a "pit bull". (Most often...it's just a mutt.)

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted by Fawteen
Statistics don't lie. From 1982 - 2014 bully breed dogs caused more serious injury and deaths than all other breeds combined, according to the editors of Animals 24-7 who collected and compiled data on 5460 dog attacks that resulted in serious injury or death and in which the breed was identified.

In nearly every case when a "bully" breed has mauled or killed a child, the owners of the dog claim that was always sweet and gentle, right up to the point that it turned.

Dogbite.org has compiled statistics from 2018 on fatal dog attacks. Once again the bully breeds were responsible for more fatalities than other breeds by far. They also have an eye opening psychological study of the owners and the way the employ strategies to disguise and deflect the real nature of their dogs by engaging in distortions, denial and deflecting/projecting blame after an attack.


Statistics don't lie...but liars LOVE statistics.

When a dog attacks someone, it becomes a "pit bull", regardless of actual breed. (Often, it's just a mutt.)

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by billt460
Go by municipal laws and insurance statistics. Many cities have a ban in place on Pit Bulls and other aggressive breeds. They name them "aggressive breeds" for a reason. Many homeowners insurance policies will not give you liability coverage if you own one of these breeds. German Shepard's, Rottweiler's, Pit Bull's, Doberman's, Bull Mastiff's, along with several other breeds are lumped into this category.

The reason is because they attack with the most frequency, and cause the most damage when they do. We just bought a new home, and when I purchased a homeowners insurance policy, they asked me if I had a dog. I told them yes, and the next question was what breed is it. When I said a 16 pound toy Poodle mix, it was not a problem. If it had been one of the breeds I just mentioned, they would not write a liability policy. There is a reason for that.

Insurance is a game of statistics. The odds of it attacking or biting someone are against you if you own a large, aggressive breed. Or what they determine as such. It's much the same if you insure a 700+ horsepower Dodge Demon, as opposed to a 4 cylinder Toyota Camry.

And while a sleeping Pit Bull certainly comes off as docile, all animals sleep. Even 20 foot Nile Crocodile's. They just don't do it on the family couch.


You don't research much do you?


Emoting is much easier than research or thought.

 

[JHZR2]

I've personally seen acquaintances use the system and "borrow"/obtain service animal credentials to get free airfare for pets.

Unfortunately that means unless I see a legit seeing eye dog, I assume the worst. Not saying that's good...

If I were in a plane with three seats in the row, I'd be concerned with having a large dog in the row. Especially since it seems that there's no real way to identify actual credentials on these animals.

But if appropriately credentialed and insured, I don't see why any type should be disallowed. That said, I also expect the airline to appropriately protect me.

 

[RayCJ]

Service dogs... If the person with the dog is blind or, has other apparent disabilities, then it qualifies as a service dog. The other exception would be service dogs in-training. Service dog trainers (and the dogs) in my area usually wear a vest clearly labeled as such.

And speaking of service dogs in training, here's a photo of a class of dogs that at the movie theater who had to sit still and watch a boring movie.

 

[doitmyself]

Originally Posted by RayCJ
Service dogs... If the person with the dog is blind or, has other apparent disabilities, then it qualifies as a service dog. The other exception would be service dogs in-training. Service dog trainers (and the dogs) in my area usually wear a vest clearly labeled as such.

And speaking of service dogs in training, here's a photo of a class of dogs that at the movie theater who had to sit still and watch a boring movie.


Your misconceptions are similar to passing judgement on a person that parks in a handicap space and seems to walk gingerly into the store without problem. That person might have a debilitating joint injury that is masked by drugs and/or determination. Just because it is not "apparent" does not mean that it does not exist. Similarly, a service dog that is trained to assist a person prone to seizures would not be as apparent as a leader dog for the blind.

The ADA does not recognize dogs-in-training as service animals nor is it required for any service animals to wear an i.d. vest. Lots of ambiguities in the regulations. The dog you mention above for the blind person might NOT qualify as a service dog, but I understand your point.

I conditioned myself not to judge others without knowing all the facts. Sadly, regarding service animals, there is always the rotten apples in the barrel that spoil the entire lot by breaking the law.

 

[RayCJ]

Originally Posted by doitmyself
Originally Posted by RayCJ
Service dogs... If the person with the dog is blind or, has other apparent disabilities, then it qualifies as a service dog. The other exception would be service dogs in-training. Service dog trainers (and the dogs) in my area usually wear a vest clearly labeled as such.

And speaking of service dogs in training, here's a photo of a class of dogs that at the movie theater who had to sit still and watch a boring movie.


Your misperceptions are as bad as passing judgement on a person that parks in a handicap space and seems to walk gingerly into the store without problem. That person might have a debilitating joint injury that is masked by drugs and/or determination. Just because it is not "apparent" does not mean that it does not exist. Similarly, a service dog that is trained to assist a person prone to seizures would not be as apparent as a leader dog for the blind.

The ADA does not recognize dogs-in-training as service animals nor is it required for any service animals to wear an i.d. vest. Lots of ambiguities in the regulations. The dog you mention above for the blind person might NOT qualify as a service dog, but I understand your point.

I conditioned myself not to judge others without knowing all the facts. Sadly, regarding service animals, there is always the rotten apples in the barrel that spoil the entire lot by breaking the law.




Given that I have a couple artificial joints along with rheumatoid arthritis, your misperceptions about who does, or does not need a service dog does not carry a lot of weight with me.

 

[doitmyself]

I apologize if I came across snarky. Excellent that you understand. I am just hoping to clear up some of the misunderstanding of others that assume that service dogs are only for the blind, have to be a certain breed, must be trained by a professional, etc..

I really wish they would clear up the airline regulations. If anything, the airlines should be more stringent in my opinion. It's such a confined space.

 

[RayCJ]

Originally Posted by doitmyself
I apologize if I came across snarky. Excellent that you understand. I am just hoping to clear up some of the misunderstanding of others that assume that service dogs are only for the blind, have to be a certain breed, must be trained by a professional, etc..



I don't care what breed the dog is nor who trained it. I live in pain every day of my life. The business of "Support Animals" for every snowflake who wants to show-off their exotic pet at the airport etc, is out of control. To me, a service animal is a dog (not a goat or chicken or lizard or peacock etc) that can perform an ambulatory or sensory function that it's master cannot. When it comes to my view of a service dog, it should have a vest or viewable tag to notify others that the dog is allowed in places otherwise off limits -such as food courts, grocery stores, and other places where dogs are generally not permitted.

Today, I was at SAM's club. A lady with obvious physical handicap with a special wheelchair had a service dog. The dog had a bright green vest. The lady could point at many object on the shelves and the dog could grab it and give it to her to place in the cart she towed behind her. We were 10 feet away from the meat section. My dog would would be drooling all over the floor. -Not this dog though. -No problem with that at all -nobody in their right mind should be worried about such a service dog.

I was on an airplane once and the lady next to me had a guinea pig that had a funky smell. OK, whatever but, it did not belong on that flight...

This is not a complicated issue -not at all. Just common sense.

PS: And FWIW, I love animals and have dogs, frogs and birds. Left knee is made of metal. Right ankle is partially fused, right major hallux is teflon and titanium -and my right hip is going to be yanked in the next year or two. We need artificial heads so people can get their heads screwed-on right.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Not all service dogs are that obvious. Off the top of my head, a service dog for an epileptic often just looks like an exceptionally well-behaved pet.

 

[RayCJ]

Originally Posted by Jarlaxle
Not all service dogs are that obvious. Off the top of my head, a service dog for an epileptic often just looks like an exceptionally well-behaved pet.


And my answer to that is very simple. If it's a service dog, it should have a tag or vest identifying it as such. If we don't have some basic rules, then every scatter-brain in the country is going to be toting their exotic pet around -and once again, the inmates will be running the asylum.

Ray