Can too much ZDDP be a bad thing for a flat tappet motor?

Status
Not open for further replies.
R

Roadstar_RIder

Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
17
Location
SF Bay Area
My 2006 Yamaha Roadstar has a big, air cooled, 1700cc push rod v-twin, with flat tappet cams and a wet clutch that shares oil with the engine via a semi dry sump system. As such it requires high ZDDP oils designed for a wet clutch. [so no Rotella] I believe the minimum requirement is 1200 ppm ZDDP, but I prefer to stick with 1400 minimum, so I run Mobil 1 V-twin 20w50.

Earlier this year, I replaced my hydraulic lifters, because they were sticking at start up and taking increasingly longer to fully pump up. [Like 5 mins.] After hearing all the horror stories about destroying old cams with new lifters, I made sure to lube up the lobes and lifter faces with high ZDDP assembly lube and added some Lucas High ZDDP Break in Additive to the oil as well, which should put my oil well north of 2000-2500 ppm ZDDP.

I'd *just* changed the oil a couple hundred miles before installing the new lifters, and with a new filter and 4 quarts of Mobil 1 V-Twin running me $50, I just kept the oil with the extra ZDDP. I've put on about 2500 miles since and I'm wondering if there's any potential damage this could cause.

On a side note: I did have a considerable amount of carbon build up on the head and piston face, so I cleaned them both and put everything back together. As a preventative measure, to keep the carbon build up from returning, a couple days ago I re-routed my crank case breather from the intake to an external filter that vents to atmosphere. It's located down by my shifter, but after my first ride this weekend with the new breather, the smell was almost nauseating. The oil has a rancid smell that's difficult to describe. [not like gasoline] Can this be due to the Lucas ZDDP additive or some other issue that's possibly causing oxidation, and if so, what? I've also noticed my clutch occasionally slipping in 2nd gear under hard accel, so I'm probably due for a new clutch soon. Could this have anything to do with it? It's not the typical burnt smell of a clutch overheating.

Any and all input is appreciated.

Regards,

R_R
[Roadstar_Rider]
 
Last edited:
Not a Yamaha expert.

How many miles on that bike. You are smelling partially combusted gasoline and oil. Have you considered that you may have a excess blowby condition.

Modern motor oils are a complex system. You do not need to add extra stuff to the oil, you can make other needed stuff drop out of suspension. Did this happen here, no way to tell. I would change the oil. I am not a fan of franken brew oil.

In any case no one needs to be breathing crankcase blowby. For a big twin, there are some pretty big pulses as the pistons move down. Then clean air gets sucked in as they move up. The original system burned the expelled air and drew in clean air. Depending on where the vapors went, it may have even drawn a vacuum in the crankcase for increased efficiency. The fresh air keeps the buildup of moisture, acids and unburned gasoline at a minimum.

Use a PEA gas additive before oil changes to keep the carbon at a minimum.

I would hook up the system like it was originally.


Rod
 
Last edited:
Run the breather down to the ground and forget about it. Some assembly lube is fine bit i wouldn't over do it on the zddp though. To much can reduce the the wear properties of the oil. Mobil 20-50 has more than enough.

Run some techron rated fuel additive for awhile and that should clean the system and valves.
 
To clarify, I don't normally used zinc additive, I only did it this time to break in the new lifters and not kill my cams.

I forgot to mention, the bike has 35k and the internals look dang near new. There are still crosshatch marks on the cylinders. I usually run Seafoam in the tank every few fill ups and add few oz. to the oil a couple hundred miles before oil changes. The stuff works wonders. The main reason I relocated the breather, aside from the recommendation of other Roadstar owners, is there was about a teaspoon of oil in intake boot when I pulled my filter to clean it 2 weeks ago. I figured if that much is coming out of the crankcase it's probably what lead to all the carbon build up.

Here are some photos to give you a better idea what I'm referring to.

Engine Internals at 32k miles:
[Linked Image]


Cylinder crosshatch marks at 32k miles:
[Linked Image]


Carbon Build up, before and after:
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
 
Last edited:
More ZDDP does NOT provide more wear protection, it only provides longer
wear protection... but motorcyclist favor shorten oil change intervals not longer...

I found from the Brad Penn Oil Company: There is such a thing as too
much ZDDP. ZDDP is surface aggressive, and too much can be a
detriment. ZDDP fights for the surface, blocking other additive
performance. Acids generated due to excessive ZDDP contact will
"tie-up" detergents thus encouraging corrosive wear. ZDDP
effectiveness plateaus, more does NOT translate into more protection.
Only so much is utilized. We don't need to saturate our oil with ZDDP.
 
ZDDP is a last ditch additive to save cams. Oil viscosity is the major factor. While it's been said that 1200 PPM is sufficient and more is not better, clearly oils engineered for very high stress often contain more than 1200PPM. Possibly in an attempt at not having too little.

At one time M1 20W-50 Vtwin contained more than 1200, but recent VOA's show it at typical 1000/1200 levels, despite the web page listed below claiming 1600/1750

https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.pdf
 
Last edited:
Just did an M1 20w50 VTwin analysis from my shared sump Kawasaki ZRX 1200. 5,065 miles and some higher RPM use along the way. The zinc and phosphorus content is lower than advertised, but absolutely enough for any flat tappet motorcycle. We're not talking John Force funny car cams here.

Here's a copy of the analysis I posted in its own thread. M1 10w40 4T racing is the sample to the right from the previous OCI, and a few other UOA's labeled as well.

IMG_20190809_161313.jpg
 
Originally Posted by Lolvoguy
What's wrong with Rotella?!
confused2.gif


Not designed for wet clutch, and with a motor as torquey as the Roadstar, clutch slippage is a real issue. The stock clutch springs are notoriously too weak and crap out at about 15-25k miles. [I've already had to replace mine. I used an EBC spring which is 20% stiffer] So anything that contributes to clutch slip isn't good and also leads to premature clutch wear.

Originally Posted by Cujet
At one time M1 20W-50 Vtwin contained more than 1200, but recent VOA's show it at typical 1000/1200 levels, despite the web page listed below claiming 1600/1750
https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.pdf


Well, suppose the lower ZDDP M1 makes me feel a *little* better about the additive. So I'm probably closer to 1800-2000. I smelled the bottle of additive today and I think it may be the cause of the odor.

I do know the need for ZDDP is a real thing. In my past life I worked in the German auto parts business. As part of my job I visited over 100 German shops to help establish Elf Oil / TOTAL Lubricants here in the Western US. I've seen first hand from a Porsche engine builder in OC what an oil with insufficient ZDDP can do to a new cam. He wasn't aware of the formulation change. He'd been using Mobil 1 20w50 Synthetic in all his Porsche builds for years. Until one day a customer car was brought back on a flatbed with less than a 100 miles a complete rebuild. He showed me the cam; it looked like someone had taken a grinder to the lobes. And this was after he'd used the proper break in oil, ran it, then flushed the motor and put fresh oil in.

So no, I personally will not take chances and use a regular oil, with low ZDDP, in a flat tappet motor.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Roadstar_RIder

Not designed for wet clutch, and with a motor as torquey as the Roadstar, clutch slippage is a real issue.


The holy trinity of science is 1)Reason 2)Observation 3)Experience...
employing those tools we observe that the primary cause of clutch slip
are high mileage... mileage is the constant among all of the clutches
that begin to slip... oil is not a constant... not when thousands of owners
report no clutch slipping with Rotella...
 
Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted by Roadstar_RIder

Not designed for wet clutch, and with a motor as torquey as the Roadstar, clutch slippage is a real issue.


The holy trinity of science is 1)Reason 2)Observation 3)Experience...
employing those tools we observe that the primary cause of clutch slip
are high mileage... mileage is the constant among all of the clutches
that begin to slip... oil is not a constant... not when thousands of owners
report no clutch slipping with Rotella...



Rotella in what kind of motor? Are you talking in a high torque engine with a wet clutch that shares oil with the motor? Because if you've got some data to back that up I'd love to save me a shirt-tonne of money on oil.
 
Last edited:
BTW... Which Rotella are you referring to the 15w40?

And my Reason for concern is the Roadstar [R*] clutch slip due to weakening stock spring is as certain as death and taxes. I've owned two and had to replace the clutch spring in both at around 25-30k miles. I also know of countless of other R* owners who've had to do the same. I also worked with EBC to help test their prototypes when they were developing a spring for the R*. As for 2)Observation and 3)Experience, see my answer to Reason.
 
Back in '09 my neighbors '07 Roadstar had some slipping from his clutch. So we just shimmed the stock clutch springs(I think he had six springs) for more pressure on the clutch plates. The stock springs are weak as [censored] and I think we used a .035 shim and his clutch held good with no slipping for the next 6 or 7 years till he sold it. As far as I know the bike still has the same set up today. I did this back in '08 to my 1100 Honda and I went and put another 80k miles on that bike before I sold it and the clutch was still all original but with the shimmed clutch springs.

Rod
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Roadstar_RIder
Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted by Roadstar_RIder

Not designed for wet clutch, and with a motor as torquey as the Roadstar, clutch slippage is a real issue.


The holy trinity of science is 1)Reason 2)Observation 3)Experience...
employing those tools we observe that the primary cause of clutch slip
are high mileage... mileage is the constant among all of the clutches
that begin to slip... oil is not a constant... not when thousands of owners
report no clutch slipping with Rotella...



Rotella in what kind of motor? Are you talking in a high torque engine with a wet clutch that shares oil with the motor? Because if you've got some data to back that up I'd love to save me a shirt-tonne of money on oil.


Heres a little data... guys using Rotella for racing etc.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...67945/all/calling_on_the_experts._diesel
 
Originally Posted by Roadstar_RIder

Rotella in what kind of motor? Are you talking in a high torque engine with a wet clutch that shares oil with the motor? Because if you've got some data to back that up I'd love to save me a shirt-tonne of money on oil.


I'm talking about your 1200 or even higher like this 1800 with shared
oil and no wet clutch complaints... mileage is the constant among wet
clutches that begin to loose their grip... no one complains about
clutch slip when the bike is new regardless if they use MC specific or
Auto oil... around the 50K mile mark owners may notice slip especially if
they do full power up shifts during the rigors of a track day...

Technically speaking all wet clutches will reach a point in their life and begin to loose grip no matter what oil you employ...

[Linked Image]
 
Last edited:
Thanks for all the info guys. And thanks BLS for the oil report on the 1800, but to be pedantic, that says 1800 V-twin Goldwing, and there is no such beast. It's either a VTX 1800 V-twin or a Goldwing 1800 flat six... But I'm just busting your cajonies. Thanks again.

Right now O'Reilly Auto Parts has Rotella on sale, $15.99 for a gallon of T4 and T5 and the T6 is $29.99, so at that price, you guys have me convinced I should at least try it; but I'm still not certain which one I'm supposed to get. Does it matter? I prefer at least a semi synth, and for as hot as it can get in here California I need a higher viscosity multi grade, so I'm thinking either the 15w40 T5 or T6. Does it make much of a difference? Will both do? FWIW I change my oil about every 5,000 miles.

And for the record, in case anyone is interested, I came across this thread that says Rotella is *not* JASO rated. ...But from what I'm reading that's not an issue.

P.S. BLS, you can believe me or not, but for anyone else that comes across this with a Roadstar, [R*] there are most definitely two completely different circumstances where the Roadstar clutch will slip. As I've said, a tired factory spring, usually at around 20-30k miles, will allow the clutch to slip in high gears, such as on the freeway when going to pass someone in 5th gear. You'll turn the throttle and the RPMs will climb, but the bike won't go any faster, then as the clutch slowly begins to grip, the RPMs will drop until it the clutch locks in and you'll accelerate.

The other situation [were the clutch will slip on a R*] is when the clutch is tired and worn out. [Which is what you're thinking about BLS] You'll first notice it when shifting gears under hard acceleration, then as it worsens, it will happen more often until the clutch will longer engage. Some times, in the early stages, adjusting the play in the clutch cable will help some, but once it reaches a certain point it's time to replace the clutch. And I would *never* recommend replacing a tired R* stock clutch spring with another Yamaha OEM spring. Either go with the EBC if you want to save money, or for about $100 more, go with the Barnett and never deal with a tired clutch spring on your R* again.
 
Last edited:
You're welcome and you're right... Lead Wings are flat 6...

Either T5 or T6 will reach your mileage expectations but only a full synth 30 grade will lower your operating temp because it flows with less drag than a 40 grade... oil drag is real...
[Linked Image]
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Roadstar_RIder


The other situation [were the clutch will slip on a R*] is when the clutch is tired and worn out. [Which is what you're thinking about BLS]


Here is what I know...

If you wish high mileage clutch life then you have to invest is some
good old sweat equity... because at the first sign of slip it doesn't
automatically mean your clutch is tired and worn out or that your
clutch plates are wore too thin because you can Mic them to
determine serviceability and within the factory specifications...

Under scrutiny you'll find that your slip was due to normal
glazing and contaminates...

Deglazing clutch plates ain't nothing new... no sir... back in the 70s
it use to be part of every savvy rider's maintenance plan... and for
some reason that all change during the 90s... why fix what you can buy
new is the what you hear now a days... but if your interested in
making your clutch bite good as new then roll up your sleeves and read
on... i

Inspect the friction plates for glazing... make sure you have plenty
of material to work with... your shop manual states clutch thickness
in thousands of an inch or mm...

First removed the contaminants with Acetone... pick a hard surface to lay
over a 600 grit black dry emery paper... rotate the clutch plate in a
circle... you're just busting the glaze... don't get carried away
remove too much material... You should end up with a friction plate
looks dull like a new one as opposed to a shinny glazed one... recheck
thickness...

[Linked Image]



Next check the pressure plates for bluing caused by localized heat...
make sure they are not warped... consult the manual for a thickness
range... now removed the contaminants with Acetone and wire wheeled
them to erased the blue and also to generally scuff up the surface...
you should end up with a dull surface free of Blue marks...

[Linked Image]




Bike on its side is a simple way to shift the oil level to an angle in order to remove the clutch cover without spillage...
Have a new gasket standing by...

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

BigJohn
ATV oil....
Replies
13
Views
2K
Bob in Utah
N
Flushing out car oil in a motorcycle?
Replies
18
Views
2K
Mackelroy
Sweebation
Break in oil for 2005 LS2
Replies
15
Views
570
nascarnation
A
What is the right oil to use on a fresh flat tappet engine AFTER break in oil?
2 3
Replies
42
Views
9K
Randy_R
cwilliamsws6
Would a PCV catch can be worthwhile?
Replies
15
Views
686
wtd
Back
Top