Automotive tech sweet spot?

[MONKEYMAN]

Originally Posted by ka9mnx
I agree with tony 1679. We have passed the sweet spot. With all the computer-aided gadgets and toys, new cars won't make it 10 to 20 years. Parts availability and repair cost truly make new cars throw aways.

I also agree with tony 1679. My 2017 Elantra SE only has radio, MPI, and a proven 6 speed automatic. Good fuel economy. My collision warning is me being alert. When changing lanes I look over my shoulder. I like it old school....

The trend I see is as Tech becomes more advanced the weak link regarding safety will be the driver. You may still drive your own car if you can afford it and insurance. Based on what I see now in 10 to 20 years many people will not able to afford to own a vehicle.

 

[dishdude]

Late 90's cars are probably my least favorite time period for cars ever. Low to the ground, low beltline, low power and low tech. Never a more boring time period for cars!

 

[eljefino]

^ The low beltline is great.

I really liked my 1992 cutlass ciera. 3.3 liter v6 in a lightweight car. MPFI for great driveability. Plenty of visibility. Good ground clearance and skinny tires meant it rocked in the snow. Roomy interior, and usefully-- the B-pillar didn't curve in for aerodynamics and annoy my head.

 

[dishdude]

Originally Posted by eljefino
^ The low beltline is great.

I really liked my 1992 cutlass ciera. 3.3 liter v6 in a lightweight car. MPFI for great driveability. Plenty of visibility. Good ground clearance and skinny tires meant it rocked in the snow. Roomy interior, and usefully-- the B-pillar didn't curve in for aerodynamics and annoy my head.


I'll take a '92 Ciera over a late 90s anything!

 

[caprice_2nv]

Originally Posted by eljefino
^ The low beltline is great.

I really liked my 1992 cutlass ciera. 3.3 liter v6 in a lightweight car. MPFI for great driveability. Plenty of visibility. Good ground clearance and skinny tires meant it rocked in the snow. Roomy interior, and usefully-- the B-pillar didn't curve in for aerodynamics and annoy my head.


Those were actually great cars, very underrated. I was given an 86 olds regency 98 from my friends dad, 3.8 Buick v6, did great burnouts and road like a dream, very comfortable. But it was too rusty underneath to safety for a winter beater.

 

[PandaBear]

It really depends on affordability (yes, reliability is a function of affordability too) and politics.

People will still buy suvs or minivans, those are going to be around one form or another, depending on fashion. As mentioned above people will spend a lot on making it a family room instead of keeping it just a transportation device.

You'll start seeing 10yr / 100k vehicle mortgage and manufacturer will provide extended warranty for these loans, and vehicle price will balloon to reflect that. 200k will be the new 150k and people will expect vehicles to last that long, and 300k will be considered "excellent". There may come a time we'll see CPO+ where manufacturer update the electronics and creature comfort and sell it at a premium, like real estate flippers do.

 

[caprice_2nv]

Originally Posted by dishdude
Originally Posted by eljefino
^ The low beltline is great.

I really liked my 1992 cutlass ciera. 3.3 liter v6 in a lightweight car. MPFI for great driveability. Plenty of visibility. Good ground clearance and skinny tires meant it rocked in the snow. Roomy interior, and usefully-- the B-pillar didn't curve in for aerodynamics and annoy my head.


I'll take a '92 Ciera over a late 90s anything!


I liked the late 90s Grand Prix or Buick regal with the 3800. Wanted to buy one at one time but I ended up sticking with the 80s stuff.

I did buy a 95 regal with a 3800 from my friend for $500. Safetied it and sold it for $1200 but it was rough. They missed a rotten trailing arm on the safety and the buyer told me, I gave him the money for the part to keep him happy, I probably should have kept that car for myself since it needed TLC. Would have been awesome if it was in better shape. The buyer used it for pizza delivery as a second job. He bought it to replace an early 90s Civic with no heat and no comfort.

 

[caprice_2nv]

Originally Posted by PandaBear
It really depends on affordability (yes, reliability is a function of affordability too) and politics.

People will still buy suvs or minivans, those are going to be around one form or another, depending on fashion. As mentioned above people will spend a lot on making it a family room instead of keeping it just a transportation device.

You'll start seeing 10yr / 100k vehicle mortgage and manufacturer will provide extended warranty for these loans, and vehicle price will balloon to reflect that. 200k will be the new 150k and people will expect vehicles to last that long, and 300k will be considered "excellent". There may come a time we'll see CPO+ where manufacturer update the electronics and creature comfort and sell it at a premium, like real estate flippers do.


I agree with the first part about 10 year mortgages on vehicles but I don't think vehicles will last 300k until they are all electric. I think the weak point now is the transmissions and in some cases engines.

If they are all electric the only likely long term major repair you can count on is a battery replacement and hopefully that will become more affordable in the long run.

As far as cars now go, it doesn't take much to write off a higher mileage or slightly older car with expensive repairs.

 

[RayCJ]

In it's class, I think the 2018 Mazda3 2.5L is a sweet-spot. Great fuel economy and performance -all in one vehicle. Not too much electronics or fancy/frilly stuff that decreases reliability. I would love to see if Mazda could make this a hybrid and get the fuel economy up to 45-50 MPG yet keep the same level of performance and handling. The 2019 is the same but am not thrilled about the styling.

 

[caprice_2nv]

Originally Posted by RayCJ

In it's class, I think the 2018 Mazda3 2.5L is a sweet-spot. Great fuel economy and performance -all in one vehicle. Not too much electronics or fancy/frilly stuff that decreases reliability. I would love to see if Mazda could make this a hybrid and get the fuel economy up to 45-50 MPG yet keep the same level of performance and handling. The 2019 is the same but am not thrilled about the styling.


If I was buying a new car today it would be one of these, but I can't imagine paying that kind of money for a car that I don't know for sure how it will hold up after 20+ years and 200k miles plus.

My girlfriend is not a car person and only understands it as a hobby for me, but even she looks at my cars as saving us money and doesn't encourage buying a newer one unless I really have to.

 

[MCompact]

If I had the extra disposable income I'd either have a new GT350 or a M2C in my garage- I'd say the sweet spot is now.

 

[JeffKeryk]

While there is little data at this point, the Tesla Model 3 battery degradation is about 10% in 160K miles and projections say it will last between 300K to 500K miles.
Who knows?
Some call it a "million mile" car. Replacement batteries will be available.

Years ago I had a 1964 Bug that ran forever with basic service and bias ply tires.
Wifey's 1988 Civic was incredible; 300K easy.
Her 2006 TSX has almost 200K and I would drive it to NY in a heartbeat.
Any Toyota PU with the 22RE 4 banger. Our Tundra is great, but thirsty...
My GS350 is a great car.
The Model 3? Gonna find out.

The Dodge Slant 6 was surely one of the best engines of its time...

Regardless, all types of cars will continue to evolve and improve.

 

[caprice_2nv]

If you have lots of disposable income the sweet spot is now or possibly even in the future. If you make less money and have lots of bills then up to late 2000s or mid 2000s is the sweet spot.

The problem with this forum is we have a lot of highly educated and high income people that can't really imagine what it's like to have an income like some of us lower class people (I work for a land surveyor and make $23 an hour which is the highest I've ever made - my shared expenses I send my girlfriend every month is $1200).

 

[caprice_2nv]

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
While there is little data at this point, the Tesla Model 3 battery degradation is about 10% in 160K miles and projections say it will last between 300K to 500K miles.
Who knows?
Some call it a "million mile" car. Replacement batteries will be available.

Years ago I had a 1964 Bug that ran forever with basic service and bias ply tires.
Wifey's 1988 Civic was incredible; 300K easy.
Her 2006 TSX has almost 200K and I would drive it to NY in a heartbeat.
Any Toyota PU with the 22RE 4 banger. Our Tundra is great, but thirsty...
My GS350 is a great car.
The Model 3? Gonna find out.

The Dodge Slant 6 was surely one of the best engines of its time...

Regardless, all types of cars will continue to evolve and improve.


Problem is even if you're a popular YouTuber like TFL you can't get parts to fix the piece of junk. Also the motors failed frequently for some YouTubers. I doubt motor failures will be common in the future but they apparently are on Tesla's which isn't a big deal for most of their owners who are rich and can just call someone to rescue them or rent a vehicle and wait months for the Tesla to be on the road.

 

[2010Civic]

I think my 2010 Civic is perfect. Simple 1.8L 4 cylinder with no direct injection or turbo, conventional 5 speed auto, hydraulic power steering, no screen for infotainment that will be outdated or break. But it is new enough to have all the airbags to keep you safe.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Originally Posted by caprice_2nv
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
While there is little data at this point, the Tesla Model 3 battery degradation is about 10% in 160K miles and projections say it will last between 300K to 500K miles.
Who knows?
Some call it a "million mile" car. Replacement batteries will be available.

Years ago I had a 1964 Bug that ran forever with basic service and bias ply tires.
Wifey's 1988 Civic was incredible; 300K easy.
Her 2006 TSX has almost 200K and I would drive it to NY in a heartbeat.
Any Toyota PU with the 22RE 4 banger. Our Tundra is great, but thirsty...
My GS350 is a great car.
The Model 3? Gonna find out.

The Dodge Slant 6 was surely one of the best engines of its time...

Regardless, all types of cars will continue to evolve and improve.


Problem is even if you're a popular YouTuber like TFL you can't get parts to fix the piece of junk. Also the motors failed frequently for some YouTubers. I doubt motor failures will be common in the future but they apparently are on Tesla's which isn't a big deal for most of their owners who are rich and can just call someone to rescue them or rent a vehicle and wait months for the Tesla to be on the road.

Teslas are expensive, no doubt. But the prices are coming down.
You can say the same for just about any performance or luxury car.
A Honda Civic is as much car as anyone really needs.
Today's electric cars are the pioneers for future cars.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by caprice_2nv
If you have lots of disposable income the sweet spot is now or possibly even in the future. If you make less money and have lots of bills then up to late 2000s or mid 2000s is the sweet spot.

The problem with this forum is we have a lot of highly educated and high income people that can't really imagine what it's like to have an income like some of us lower class people (I work for a land surveyor and make $23 an hour which is the highest I've ever made - my shared expenses I send my girlfriend every month is $1200).


I have friends that pay 6 figure taxes. They drive Mazda's and Toyotas and so forth just like the rest of us.

 

[Railrust]

Originally Posted by tony1679
Originally Posted by Railrust
To be honest, I think we just left the sweet spot...

It seemed like just yesterday everyone had timing belts figured out...fuel injection was practically flawless...oil change intervals were going longer (and you weren't hearing about oil consumption as much)...

Late 90s to late 2000s vehicles were mostly pretty good across the board, and there's a case for some even newer with old tech. But I'm still 10000% against CVTs (and cylinder deactivation), 1000% against direct injection, 100% against 7+ speed transmissions, 10% against turbos, and 1% against VVT in that order. I can tolerate timing belts, electric steering, *a few* minor electronics, etc.

Yes I sound like I'm old and stubborn. But I'm not even 30. I just have seen cars and trucks of old and their problems, and seen modern vehicles and know some of their woes. It seems history is somewhat repeating itself. We're going back to short oil changes (with better oil than we've ever had) due to lousy fuel delivery systems. We're going back to major repairs early in a car's life due to overcomplicated tech (thanks EPA). We're paying more for repairs on single crucial parts than entire cars would cost 40 years ago.

Hyundai is one of the last to build it right IMO (in the case of my '16 Elantra). Last to the party on DI, last on turbos, last on CVTs, last on the excessive tech. Look at the problems that Honda, one of the highest regarded manufacturers, is having right now with major things. Look at the 1.5L motor. They're using CVTs. They're overloading cars with too much tech (tablets, touchscreens, etc) that will be outdated, broken, or useless in 5-10 years...

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. But the EPA says otherwise. I'm all for progress, but lately there's more risk than benefit. Based on how insane the used car market and how slow new car sales have been, I'd say I'm not the only one thinking like this..


For the most part I agree, however I think things will improve in this segment, it'll just take some time. Direct injections seems better now than it was five years ago...we shall see if it continues to improve. Looks like Ford has decided to go port and direct injection, others have followed. Be interesting to see where it goes. I have driven some 8 speed tranmssion that I liked...and some I really couldn't stand. Depends.

 

[Railrust]

Originally Posted by caprice_2nv
My work supplied truck I drive every day is a 2005 Silverado 4x4. While it has all the common issues on them (speedometer doesn't work, clunky steering shaft, water pump failed around 170k miles) it just seems to be the most reliable piece of equipment we use at work.

The boss thinks it needs to be replaced soon but he's not a car guy at all. I look at it as saving him money and I try to keep it going as long as possible.

The other 2 trucks are a 2010 Tacoma and 2013 Silverado which both have been nearly trouble free so far, but the bosses current truck which will one day become a work truck is a 2016 Silverado with direct injection, I'm not sure how well that will hold up after 8000 engine hours (our trucks idle a lot).


I think you're smart to keep that 2005 going because those were legendary for long term reliability, the newer ones 2008-2018's introduced active fuel management, and there have been issues...lifter collapse, torque converter clutches burning out. They do have the direct injection and oil consumption, but in all honesty I think these trucks aren't too bad, but are they pre 2008 reliable? Not sure, probably hit or mis.

I have a 2018 Silverado and so far it's been good (33,000 miles), but I'm not using it like you guys are...but some people are (I've heard they're not holding up like the older ones).

 

[MCompact]

As I stated on another website, the N55 3.0 liter DI turbo in my M235i makes 330 ft lb of torque from 1,400-4,500 rpm; coupled with the great ZF 8HP45 automatic you are almost never caught out of the power band. Having grown up in the '60s and '70s I still find it amazing that you can buy a car that runs the quarter in 13 seconds flat yet still return over 26 mpg in daily driving and 32 mpg or better on the highway.
These ARE the good old days.