Automotive tech sweet spot?

[AZjeff]

Been thinking about this. In the last 10 or so years do you think there was a sweet spot in automotive technology including the ICE drive train and other electronic tech or are we not there yet? Some people love the latest tech and others don't. Will today's car make a good used car in 10 or 20 years or will most repairs be more than they're worth?

 

[Railrust]

To be honest, I think we just left the sweet spot and now we're entering another stage where there will need to be improvements ( direct injection). Prior to direct injection I really thought the Automotive industry had kind of "figured things out", but now it's a little bit like they're trying to figure things out yet again.

It looks like there have been some improvements to DI, but manufacturers are balancing that, CAFE regulations, turbos, smaller engines, lighter weight oil, 8 9 10 speed transmissions, bigger and more complex timing chains and variable valve timing.

It seemed like just yesterday everyone had timing belts figured out...fuel injection was practically flawless with no fuel injector failures (remember when that was a thing?), oil change intervals were going longer (and you weren't hearing about oil consumption as much), engine rebuild shops were going out of business, machine shops weren't machining heads (because no one was doing head gaskets anymore), and you knew your car would rust out before mechanical failure.

Now it seems like there's a little adjustment going on as some of this newer technology has become standard/mainstream.

 

[Skippy722]

Hard to truly say. I definitely think we are in the middle of another horsepower "war." 300hp v6's getting 30mpg highway is amazing! Relatively affordable 600+hp v8's? That was unheard of.

But as Ws6 said in another thread, they might look back in a few decades and think nothing of it, kind of how we do now. ~6 second 0-60 times used to be kind of impressive, now it's just average. Interior electronics will continue to improve though. Hopefully toward an Apple CarPlay and Android Auto future.

As for being a good used car in 10 years, probably. 20 though.... pushing it. I wouldn't put my kids in a 20 year old car now on the safety factor alone, crash safety is always improving.

 

[AZjeff]

Diminishing returns will kick in at some point one would think. Not long ago full size trucks with a 2.7L twin turbo and 10 speed trannys was unheard of. What displacement is too small and how many speeds is too many?

I have a friend who's 70 who just bought a 2019 Audi Q5 and loves it. He thinks all the nanny tech helps him be a safer driver as he ages. He's probably right and trades ever 3-4 years so isn't concerned about long term reliability or downstream owners.

 

[tony1679]

Originally Posted by Railrust
To be honest, I think we just left the sweet spot...

It seemed like just yesterday everyone had timing belts figured out...fuel injection was practically flawless...oil change intervals were going longer (and you weren't hearing about oil consumption as much)...

Late 90s to late 2000s vehicles were mostly pretty good across the board, and there's a case for some even newer with old tech. But I'm still 10000% against CVTs (and cylinder deactivation), 1000% against direct injection, 100% against 7+ speed transmissions, 10% against turbos, and 1% against VVT in that order. I can tolerate timing belts, electric steering, *a few* minor electronics, etc.

Yes I sound like I'm old and stubborn. But I'm not even 30. I just have seen cars and trucks of old and their problems, and seen modern vehicles and know some of their woes. It seems history is somewhat repeating itself. We're going back to short oil changes (with better oil than we've ever had) due to lousy fuel delivery systems. We're going back to major repairs early in a car's life due to overcomplicated tech (thanks EPA). We're paying more for repairs on single crucial parts than entire cars would cost 40 years ago.

Hyundai is one of the last to build it right IMO (in the case of my '16 Elantra). Last to the party on DI, last on turbos, last on CVTs, last on the excessive tech. Look at the problems that Honda, one of the highest regarded manufacturers, is having right now with major things. Look at the 1.5L motor. They're using CVTs. They're overloading cars with too much tech (tablets, touchscreens, etc) that will be outdated, broken, or useless in 5-10 years...

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. But the EPA says otherwise. I'm all for progress, but lately there's more risk than benefit. Based on how insane the used car market and how slow new car sales have been, I'd say I'm not the only one thinking like this..

 

[Ws6]

Well, I'd say late 90s. If we could re-master late 90s vehicles with today's build quality and update the styling of some, we'd have some legit winners.

 

[E365]

Now. It'll always be "now".

 

[atikovi]

Many posts every day here about a dealer not able to fix a problem after numerous tries. Tech is great but it can get too complicated so that when it breaks, it's hard to fix right. Maybe if repairability advanced as fast as the tech itself, it would be a good thing.

 

[PimTac]

Direct injection has been around for a couple of decades or so on passenger cars. It's nothing new.

 

[MrHorspwer]

Originally Posted by atikovi
Many posts every day here about a dealer not able to fix a problem after numerous tries. Tech is great but it can get too complicated so that when it breaks, it's hard to fix right. Maybe if repairability advanced as fast as the tech itself, it would be a good thing.


Is this a comment against the tech itself or is it a comment against a service industry that refuses to properly train and pay their technicians for the work they're expected to perform?

Unfortunately, the service industry hasn't evolved quickly enough from a "nuts and bolts" mentality to a "signals and messages" mentality. Look at how many suspension guys that efficiently replace a bent tie rod but can't seem to align a vehicle correctly the first time. That's even using a highly automated machine. You expect that same guy, the one who can't run a Hunter alignment machine, to use an electronic vibration analyzer or oscilloscope to determine if a vibration is cause by a wheel and tire or by the driveline? That's the technicians the industry needs. Unfortunately, that's not how they're being paid or trained. They're being paid and trained to replace parts or sell tire balances, not to actually diagnose problems.

It's a customer problem too. Customers understand that it takes time replace a part because it's something they've done. They've replaced the blade on their lawnmower, so they know that bolting an unbolting parts takes some time. They're willing to pay for that time. They've never used an oscilloscope and can't understand the difference between a first and second order vibration. They know that Auto Zone plugged in their magic machine to the connector under the dash and told them to replace the O2 sensor. Why should I pay a technician to diagnose my vehicle? Auto Zone did it in 30 seconds. Even better, they googled it and some guy on youtube or a forum said that O2 sensor go bad all the time. Just replace the darn O2 sensor for me!

 

[Kira]

Car makers upping the silly tech includes outdoing each other and impressing potential customers.

ASIDE: A friend's Dad owned a dealership. When I commented on the coin holder (spring loaded cylinder with plunger style) in the armrest mt friend said, "You'd be surprised what sells a car".

I wish is that car makers installed gadgets on cars 2 years ahead of time to weather test them. VW added the TPMS pickup externally for a couple of years before including "protected wiring troughs" in subsequent body designs.

 

[atikovi]

Originally Posted by MrHorspwer
Originally Posted by atikovi
Many posts every day here about a dealer not able to fix a problem after numerous tries. Tech is great but it can get too complicated so that when it breaks, it's hard to fix right. Maybe if repairability advanced as fast as the tech itself, it would be a good thing.


Is this a comment against the tech itself or is it a comment against a service industry that refuses to properly train and pay their technicians for the work they're expected to perform?


More like an observation. Maybe in 10 or 20 years diagnosing a problem will be much more advanced and depend less on the skill of the tech than it does now. BTW, do the car makers have plans beyond OBD2 in the works?

 

[atikovi]

Originally Posted by PimTac
Direct injection has been around for a couple of decades or so on passenger cars. It's nothing new.


A couple? I recall the Cadillac CTS in 2008 was the first. Do you mean fuel injection in general?

 

[PimTac]

Mitsubishi had GDI in the 90's.

 

[Leo99]

Originally Posted by MrHorspwer
Originally Posted by atikovi
Many posts every day here about a dealer not able to fix a problem after numerous tries. Tech is great but it can get too complicated so that when it breaks, it's hard to fix right. Maybe if repairability advanced as fast as the tech itself, it would be a good thing.


Is this a comment against the tech itself or is it a comment against a service industry that refuses to properly train and pay their technicians for the work they're expected to perform?

Unfortunately, the service industry hasn't evolved quickly enough from a "nuts and bolts" mentality to a "signals and messages" mentality. Look at how many suspension guys that efficiently replace a bent tie rod but can't seem to align a vehicle correctly the first time. That's even using a highly automated machine. You expect that same guy, the one who can't run a Hunter alignment machine, to use an electronic vibration analyzer or oscilloscope to determine if a vibration is cause by a wheel and tire or by the driveline? That's the technicians the industry needs. Unfortunately, that's not how they're being paid or trained. They're being paid and trained to replace parts or sell tire balances, not to actually diagnose problems.

It's a customer problem too. Customers understand that it takes time replace a part because it's something they've done. They've replaced the blade on their lawnmower, so they know that bolting an unbolting parts takes some time. They're willing to pay for that time. They've never used an oscilloscope and can't understand the difference between a first and second order vibration. They know that Auto Zone plugged in their magic machine to the connector under the dash and told them to replace the O2 sensor. Why should I pay a technician to diagnose my vehicle? Auto Zone did it in 30 seconds. Even better, they googled it and some guy on youtube or a forum said that O2 sensor go bad all the time. Just replace the darn O2 sensor for me!



Good points. If I'm paying a diagnostic fee and they misdiagnose and I then pay for a part to be replaced that doesn't fix the problem, I'm not happy.

Lemon laws are nothing new. Dealerships being unable to fix problems goes back a long way and nothing to do with today's technology.

Only took me 5 minutes to diagnose a bad coil with a $20 OBDII reader.

 

[ka9mnx]

I agree with tony 1679. We have passed the sweet spot. With all the computer-aided gadgets and toys, new cars won't make it 10 to 20 years. Parts availability and repair cost truly make new cars throw aways.

 

[caprice_2nv]

I'm going with late 90s to late 2000s.

 

[Trav]

There is none and never will be. In the 48 years I have been doing this work every time something new and improved came out it was garbage then some time later was declared the best thing since sliced bread.
Think about the first EFI, HDI ignitions, ECM controls, body control modules, Cats, early emission control systems, disc brakes, power steering systems, automatics, you name it when introduced they were all serious crap in one way way or another. Some were found to be crap no matter what and disappeared eg seat belt interlock. Start/Stop IMO is going to one of thing that goes that way.

It took time (sometimes a couple of decades as in the case of variable cylinder management) and experience to get the bugs out and make them reliable.

 

[slacktide_bitog]

Originally Posted by Railrust
To be honest, I think we just left the sweet spot and now we're entering another stage where there will need to be improvements ( direct injection). Prior to direct injection I really thought the Automotive industry had kind of "figured things out", but now it's a little bit like they're trying to figure things out yet again.

It looks like there have been some improvements to DI, but manufacturers are balancing that, CAFE regulations, turbos, smaller engines, lighter weight oil, 8 9 10 speed transmissions, bigger and more complex timing chains and variable valve timing.

It seemed like just yesterday everyone had timing belts figured out...fuel injection was practically flawless with no fuel injector failures (remember when that was a thing?), oil change intervals were going longer (and you weren't hearing about oil consumption as much), engine rebuild shops were going out of business, machine shops weren't machining heads (because no one was doing head gaskets anymore), and you knew your car would rust out before mechanical failure.

Now it seems like there's a little adjustment going on as some of this newer technology has become standard/mainstream.

 

[caprice_2nv]

My work supplied truck I drive every day is a 2005 Silverado 4x4. While it has all the common issues on them (speedometer doesn't work, clunky steering shaft, water pump failed around 170k miles) it just seems to be the most reliable piece of equipment we use at work.

The boss thinks it needs to be replaced soon but he's not a car guy at all. I look at it as saving him money and I try to keep it going as long as possible.

The other 2 trucks are a 2010 Tacoma and 2013 Silverado which both have been nearly trouble free so far, but the bosses current truck which will one day become a work truck is a 2016 Silverado with direct injection, I'm not sure how well that will hold up after 8000 engine hours (our trucks idle a lot).