What's up with Mobil deserting the LL-01 market?

[homeyclaus]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
No, but BHP/L is a component.

I don't have a shop manual in front of me, but the clearances are the same on the Coyote, regardless of what application it is in as far as I recall. However the Coyote in the Mustang has a higher BHP/L than in the F-150, as the F-150 makes 395HP, putting it at 79HP/L, still higher than the Toyota example, but a solid 40HP shy of the car version. It also specs 5w-20, however the forced induction options like the 2.7L and the 3.5L spec 5w-30.

Also worth mentioning is that many (most?) truck applications will feature an oil cooler as part of the factory plumbing. So keeping oil temperature in check while towing is accounted for there.


Fair enough. So let me ask this, isn't shear strength measured on torque? I.e. the force exerted by the piston on the crankshaft during the combustion stroke. Car engines tend to rev higher especially in sports cars, and it's more likely that a thicker oil is ever so less likely to get spun off of things at higher revolutions.

FWIW, my Focus ST had an oil cooler, and obviously the turbo was cooled too. As does my friend's Mustang 2.3L EB.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: homeyclaus
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
No, but BHP/L is a component.

I don't have a shop manual in front of me, but the clearances are the same on the Coyote, regardless of what application it is in as far as I recall. However the Coyote in the Mustang has a higher BHP/L than in the F-150, as the F-150 makes 395HP, putting it at 79HP/L, still higher than the Toyota example, but a solid 40HP shy of the car version. It also specs 5w-20, however the forced induction options like the 2.7L and the 3.5L spec 5w-30.

Also worth mentioning is that many (most?) truck applications will feature an oil cooler as part of the factory plumbing. So keeping oil temperature in check while towing is accounted for there.


Fair enough. So let me ask this, isn't shear strength measured on torque? I.e. the force exerted by the piston on the crankshaft during the combustion stroke. Car engines tend to rev higher especially in sports cars, and it's more likely that a thicker oil is ever so less likely to get spun off of things at higher revolutions.

FWIW, my Focus ST had an oil cooler, and obviously the turbo was cooled too. As does my friend's Mustang 2.3L EB.


Great discussion

And your friend's Mustang spec's 5w-30 I'd wager

I don't believe the RPM ceiling on the Coyote is all that different between the trucks and cars, but on the track you are likely to spend more time screaming up there, which will of course drive up oil temperatures. Member Shannow did a test, varying nothing but RPM and using a thermocoupler down the dipstick tube. He was able to significantly increase oil temperature via this method (this was on a 3.8L GM V6 with no oil cooler).

I know with the 5.0L in the Mustang that Ford would use a thermal castration mechanism to cut power if oil temperature got too high. However, if you ordered the "Track Pack" version of the car, you got a spec for 5w-50 instead of 5w-20 and also received an oil cooler. I believe that there was also a modification or the elimination of this thermal safety mechanism as part of that "upgrade package".

Of course this brings us back to temperature, which is the biggest dictator of viscosity. The ability for an application to heat the oil will have a significant role in determining what viscosity is spec'd. A high power density forced induction application with a high RPM operating ceiling will have the ability to heat the oil more than a low power density naturally aspirated V8 that doesn't spin very high. Sump volume also plays a role here of course as well. If you can keep the oil cool enough, then you can spec a thinner viscosity. I think Ford's flip-flop on this has indicated that doing so can be problematic, hence the resurgence of 5w-30 popularity in their newer engine lineup.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: Leonardo629
est alternative if you are keen on the LL-01 cert, but I just prefer the latest GTL formula.

forget about LL-01 for a sec, I still can't believe BMW really is prescribing 0W20 in the new 3.0L B58 engines pushing 320hp/330ft-lb.


The BMW S55 (M3/M4) runs on 0w30 and makes well over 400 hp.

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted By: Leonardo629
est alternative if you are keen on the LL-01 cert, but I just prefer the latest GTL formula.

forget about LL-01 for a sec, I still can't believe BMW really is prescribing 0W20 in the new 3.0L B58 engines pushing 320hp/330ft-lb.


The BMW S55 (M3/M4) runs on 0w30 and makes well over 400 hp.


Yes, but isn't that a "thick 30" with HTHS > 3.5? (making it closer to a 40)

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted By: Leonardo629
est alternative if you are keen on the LL-01 cert, but I just prefer the latest GTL formula.

forget about LL-01 for a sec, I still can't believe BMW really is prescribing 0W20 in the new 3.0L B58 engines pushing 320hp/330ft-lb.


The BMW S55 (M3/M4) runs on 0w30 and makes well over 400 hp.


Yes, but isn't that a "thick 30" with HTHS > 3.5? (making it closer to a 40)


I haven't a clue. Does Shell sell such a product? I'll have to look.

Edit: I found Helix Ultra ECT 0W-30 on their UK Site. It's a LL04 C3 so HTHS could be at 3.5

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted By: Leonardo629
est alternative if you are keen on the LL-01 cert, but I just prefer the latest GTL formula.

forget about LL-01 for a sec, I still can't believe BMW really is prescribing 0W20 in the new 3.0L B58 engines pushing 320hp/330ft-lb.


The BMW S55 (M3/M4) runs on 0w30 and makes well over 400 hp.

I think M models are still using strictly LL-01.

 

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted By: Leonardo629
est alternative if you are keen on the LL-01 cert, but I just prefer the latest GTL formula. forget about LL-01 for a sec, I still can't believe BMW really is prescribing 0W20 in the new 3.0L B58 engines pushing 320hp/330ft-lb.

The BMW S55 (M3/M4) runs on 0w30 and makes well over 400 hp.

I think M models are still using strictly LL-01.

According to this: http://www.bmwwidget.ca/pdf/2015_BMWOil_Brochure_EN.pdf which is BMW's own brochure from a couple of years ago, you can use LL-01 (5w30 or 0w40) or LL-01FE 0w30 in M engines. It also says to use the thick 10w60 in older M vehicles (see brochure).

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted By: Leonardo629
est alternative if you are keen on the LL-01 cert, but I just prefer the latest GTL formula. forget about LL-01 for a sec, I still can't believe BMW really is prescribing 0W20 in the new 3.0L B58 engines pushing 320hp/330ft-lb.

The BMW S55 (M3/M4) runs on 0w30 and makes well over 400 hp.

I think M models are still using strictly LL-01.

According to this: http://www.bmwwidget.ca/pdf/2015_BMWOil_Brochure_EN.pdf which is BMW's own brochure from a couple of years ago, you can use LL-01 (5w30 or 0w40) or LL-01FE 0w30 in M engines. It also says to use the thick 10w60 in older M vehicles (see brochure).

This is first time I see LL-01FE mentioned for M models.
That begs question why specific M oil?

 

[weasley]

Nat asp M engines use the 10W-60, which doesn't meet any "LL-..." specs. Turbocharged M engines can use the more usual gamut of BMW-approved oils.

 

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted By: Leonardo629
est alternative if you are keen on the LL-01 cert, but I just prefer the latest GTL formula.

forget about LL-01 for a sec, I still can't believe BMW really is prescribing 0W20 in the new 3.0L B58 engines pushing 320hp/330ft-lb.


The BMW S55 (M3/M4) runs on 0w30 and makes well over 400 hp.

I think M models are still using strictly LL-01.


The manual for my F80 says to use oil with a viscosity grade of 0w30. Alternatively 5w30 may be used. It then further says that oil should meet the following standards: LL-01 or LL-01 FE.

The dealer put 0w30 in my car at the last service.

 

[Jeff_O]

The 2018 F80 M3 specs the 0W-30 FE oil. That is what the local dealer put in for the break in service at 1200+ miles. Also the BMW oil change interval is reduced to 7500 miles, so you get a free oil change earlier. Other BMW's are 10,000 miles to the best of my knowledge. The manual recommends the 0W-30 oil, but also says 5W-30, 0W-40 and 5W-40 can be used.

I contacted Pennzoil to ask if the euro 5w-40 is a better choice for track and autocross use, assuming the engine is properly warmed, and they said I should use the BMW recommended/branded product. I told them cost of the oil was not a concern to me, just engine longevity (I keep my cars a long time). My concern is that BMW is going to the FE grade just to improve corporate mileage slightly.

It's interesting the 2018 is now rated 25 mpg highway whereas the 2017 was 26 mpg (both 6mt) on the EPA site. Both are still rated 20mpg combined and 17 city.

Jeff
2018 M3
1995 S52 E34

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
I contacted Pennzoil to ask if the euro 5w-40 is a better choice for track and autocross use, assuming the engine is properly warmed, and they said I should use the BMW recommended/branded product.

No reputable mainstream oil manufacturer is going to suggest you use a product that doesn't carry the spec that your engine manufacturer calls for. If they did, they would be opening themselves up to all sorts of potential legal issues. At the end of the day, it is BMW who is going to stand behind that new car warranty, not Pennzoil.

Nice car, by the way!

 

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
The 2018 F80 M3 specs the 0W-30 FE oil. That is what the local dealer put in for the break in service at 1200+ miles. Also the BMW oil change interval is reduced to 7500 miles, so you get a free oil change earlier. Other BMW's are 10,000 miles to the best of my knowledge. The manual recommends the 0W-30 oil, but also says 5W-30, 0W-40 and 5W-40 can be used.


Does your manual officially recommend break-in factory-fill oil be changed at 1200 miles or so? I've long advocated that but many try to argue as long as car makers don't say you should, then don't.

I thought Pennzoil Euro 0w40 dropped LL-01 but Pennz Euro 5w40 still has LL-01. Is that not the case now?

Of course your other option is to step up in visc to Castrol Edge black jug 0w40 at Walmart which does still carry LL-01. Especially if you're going to track/autocross the M3.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
The 2018 F80 M3 specs the 0W-30 FE oil. That is what the local dealer put in for the break in service at 1200+ miles. Also the BMW oil change interval is reduced to 7500 miles, so you get a free oil change earlier. Other BMW's are 10,000 miles to the best of my knowledge. The manual recommends the 0W-30 oil, but also says 5W-30, 0W-40 and 5W-40 can be used.

I contacted Pennzoil to ask if the euro 5w-40 is a better choice for track and autocross use, assuming the engine is properly warmed, and they said I should use the BMW recommended/branded product. I told them cost of the oil was not a concern to me, just engine longevity (I keep my cars a long time). My concern is that BMW is going to the FE grade just to improve corporate mileage slightly.

It's interesting the 2018 is now rated 25 mpg highway whereas the 2017 was 26 mpg (both 6mt) on the EPA site. Both are still rated 20mpg combined and 17 city.

Jeff
2018 M3
1995 S52 E34

I would go with LL-01.
BMW is boosting its fleet MPG ratings with FE oils.
In Europe where speeds are higher, it is recommended to use LL-04 (due to ULSG in EU) or LL-01 in areas where sulfur levels are higher in gas. Regardless, point is that for higher speeds BMW and manufacturers are recommending HTHS greater then 3.5cp (or per my vocabulary: if you drive BMW the way BMW should be driven, use LL-01).
You already have in manual provided by BMW option to use 0W40, 5W40 etc.
If I had that car I would go to local Wal Mart and got Castrol 0W40.
As for new MPG EPA ratings, that is bcs EPA slightly changed methodology.

 

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies

Does your manual officially recommend break-in factory-fill oil be changed at 1200 miles or so? I've long advocated that but many try to argue as long as car makers don't say you should, then don't.


Yes all BMW M cars stipulate a 1,200 mile break-in service.

 

[330indy]

yep
I put in Redline at 200 miles, in my e92m3

 

[drtyler]

Checking on Mobil's site to see which M1 filter fits my 328i and noticed that Mobil was bringing an LL-01 approved lubricant to the US. It also has MB 229.5 and VW 502/505 approval according to the spec sheet.

https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-super/mobil-super-synthetic-euro

https://www.mobil.com/English-US/Passenger-Vehicle-Lube/pds/NAXXMobil-Super-Synthetic-Euro-5W40

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by drtyler
Checking on Mobil's site to see which M1 filter fits my 328i and noticed that Mobil was bringing an LL-01 approved lubricant to the US. It also has MB 229.5 and VW 502/505 approval according to the spec sheet.

https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-super/mobil-super-synthetic-euro

https://www.mobil.com/English-US/Passenger-Vehicle-Lube/pds/NAXXMobil-Super-Synthetic-Euro-5W40


Mobil Super = bone thrown to old dogs. "old dogs" = older cars.

 

[drtyler]

Can't disagree, but the product seems new. The existing LL-01 product in Canada (Mobil Super 3000 X1 5W-40) does not have MB 229.5 approval and appears to be a different lubricant based on the viscosity numbers. Mobil may have used a different global product which already has LL-01 approval, or they sought new LL-01 approval for a new or reformulated lubricant. But for whatever reason did not use FS 0W-40.

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by drtyler
Checking on Mobil's site to see which M1 filter fits my 328i and noticed that Mobil was bringing an LL-01 approved lubricant to the US. It also has MB 229.5 and VW 502/505 approval according to the spec sheet.

https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-super/mobil-super-synthetic-euro

https://www.mobil.com/English-US/Passenger-Vehicle-Lube/pds/NAXXMobil-Super-Synthetic-Euro-5W40


Mobil Super = bone thrown to old dogs. "old dogs" = older cars.

 

[UncleDave]

Missed the first 6 pages....

Is this on BMW for exorbitant licensing fees?

Or is Mobil behind where they need to be?

I can get 229.52 approved oil from Mobil which is a pretty tough spec to meet.


UD