does it matter how you treat your car?

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted by dogememe
It's common sense that a gently-driven vehicle is going to last longer and require less repairs but how much does it really matter? I beat on my Escape on a daily basis (I floor it frequently, and generally drive harshly) and I have no issues with the engine or transmission (for now)... If I look how most fleet vehicles are treated (not well) it seems like it doesn't actually matter... Do we have any evidence it makes a difference?


It matters.

Put trucks aside for a minute.

Passenger auto engines given basic maintenance rarely wear out.
They are very lightly loaded components averaging something like 25% overall load.
Trannys are more hit an miss than engines

Where you see evidence of harsh treatment is in the rest of the car.

Motor mounts, bushings, brakes, suspension, clutches, you can tell who is hard and who is easy on a car when you put it on a lift and start looking at whats worn out at what interval.

Driving style has a large effect on component life.
I can get twice the life out of a set of brakes as my sister.
She has utterly destroyed something like 10 cars in 30 years.



UD

 

[caprice_2nv]

Originally Posted by AZjeff
So your good car is an 84 and your winter beater is an 83? You sir are a BITOG hero. You'll probably retire at 50 with all the money saved.


Yes you are correct. I have been driving the same basic car (g body gm) since I was 16 (20 years ago). That was my dad's 83 grand Prix at the time. I've just stuck with them.

 

[gman2304]

All my vehicles durability seems to have improved since I turned 40!

 

[dogememe]

Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by dogememe
It's common sense that a gently-driven vehicle is going to last longer and require less repairs but how much does it really matter? I beat on my Escape on a daily basis (I floor it frequently, and generally drive harshly) and I have no issues with the engine or transmission (for now)... If I look how most fleet vehicles are treated (not well) it seems like it doesn't actually matter... Do we have any evidence it makes a difference?


It matters.

Put trucks aside for a minute.

Passenger auto engines given basic maintenance rarely wear out.
They are very lightly loaded components averaging something like 25% overall load.
Trannys are more hit an miss than engines

Where you see evidence of harsh treatment is in the rest of the car.

Motor mounts, bushings, brakes, suspension, clutches, you can tell who is hard and who is easy on a car when you put it on a lift and start looking at whats worn out at what interval.

Driving style has a large effect on component life.
I can get twice the life out of a set of brakes as my sister.
She has utterly destroyed something like 10 cars in 30 years.

UD



Thank you. This is what I was interested in.

 

[thrace]

Originally Posted by krismoriah72
Originally Posted by dogememe
It's common sense that a gently-driven vehicle is going to last longer and require less repairs but how much does it really matter? I beat on my Escape on a daily basis (I floor it frequently, and generally drive harshly) and I have no issues with the engine or transmission (for now)... If I look how most fleet vehicles are treated (not well) it seems like it doesn't actually matter... Do we have any evidence it makes a difference?


Its my belief that the only downfall to modern vehicles is manufacturing defects.

From the past 20 yrs..

Subaru- Head Gaskets, Piston Slap
Toyota - Sludge, Oil Consumption
Honda- Fuel Dilution, Black Death A/C, Transmission Slipping
Chevrolet- Intake Gaskets


Evidence that it makes a difference ?- well you would have to look into police vehicle repairs.. I often see police cruisers flooring it and driving harshly for no reason at all except that they can. When in pursuit or going to a call the engines scream for mercy.


Do you include design defects in problems mentioned in your post? Some including Honda transmission involve poor design as well as manufacturing defects.

 

[fdcg27]

Why does this old chestnut keep coming up?
Honda made one generation of Accords with a sometimes troublesome automatic last seen in 2002 and we still have to hear about it.
For the record, the failure rate of this supposedly glass transaxle was around one in ten, so the odds for any owner were pretty good.

 

[dogememe]

Originally Posted by fdcg27
Why does this old chestnut keep coming up?
Honda made one generation of Accords with a sometimes troublesome automatic last seen in 2002 and we still have to hear about it.
For the record, the failure rate of this supposedly glass transaxle was around one in ten, so the odds for any owner were pretty good.


i'd rather have a 2001 honda accord v6 with a crappy transmission than a chrysler 200 with a crappy everything. besides at almost 20 years old with most of those cars having 150k+ miles the transmission has done its job.

 

[jeepman3071]

It absolutely matters, but there are several factors involved. If the engine is up to operating temperature, driving it hard will not really cause any problems unless there are other underlying issues with the car. If you intentionally hit curbs, large potholes, never wash it or clean the interior, and generally neglect maintenance then of course it will have issues and not last as long. I drive my vehicles hard, but they are always maintained meticulously, kept clean, and I inspect things regularly. I've owned my Jeep for over 10 years now, and everyone who drives it says it drives like new even with 180k miles.

When I worked a college campus job, we had a 2003 Ford Windstar for moving network equipment. This van went to the scrap yard in 2011. It was stored in a parking garage, had 33,000 miles on it, and was only used to drive around campus with the occasional trip offsite to another campus office. The interior was nasty, it was never washed so the winter salt and rust is what eventually did it in, and the suspension was falling apart from students driving it where it likely shouldn't have been. Maintenance by the university was also done on an "as needed" basis to save money. When I started the job in 2008 it had 20 something thousand miles on it, and was already on it's second set of tires and brakes.

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted by dogememe
Originally Posted by fdcg27
Why does this old chestnut keep coming up?
Honda made one generation of Accords with a sometimes troublesome automatic last seen in 2002 and we still have to hear about it.
For the record, the failure rate of this supposedly glass transaxle was around one in ten, so the odds for any owner were pretty good.


i'd rather have a 2001 honda accord v6 with a crappy transmission than a chrysler 200 with a crappy everything. besides at almost 20 years old with most of those cars having 150k+ miles the transmission has done its job.



These transmissions weren't great, but I do think it depends a lot on the vehicle it was in as well as maintenance. Many of the failures were in Odyssey vans which are heavy and usually overloaded to begin with. Combine that with the "drive forever with no maintenance" mindset a lot of Honda owners have and it was a recipe for disaster. My sister owns a 2003 Acura 3.2TL which has one of the "troubled" transmissions. She got the car at 90k miles and it shifted a bit harsh and the fluid was black. I did a few drain and fills with Honda ATF and changed the little known canister filter right above the transmission and it shifts a lot better now, and the fluid stays somewhat clean at 150k miles.

 

[Hootbro]

Originally Posted by Kira
..........

My friend's 24 year old, 1,800 miles per year F-150 seems to keep breaking things.....and he couldn't be gentler on machinery.



From my experience, those "Grandma only drove on Sunday" low mileage but high age cream puff vehicles are a pig in a poke. Once you start to put them into daily use drivers, there age seems to catch up quick even thought miles are low.

Something there to be said about a in work vehicle lasting longer mileage wise than a infrequent one sitting around for the most part and when pulled into service, p!sses the bed.

 

[thrace]

Originally Posted by fdcg27
Why does this old chestnut keep coming up?
Honda made one generation of Accords with a sometimes troublesome automatic last seen in 2002 and we still have to hear about it.
For the record, the failure rate of this supposedly glass transaxle was around one in ten, so the odds for any owner were pretty good.


Why bring up old chestnuts? I like chestnuts.
Reported problems exceeds one in ten for those years. One in ten failure rate sounds bad already. Source for one in ten?

The Honda Acura transmission failures were common from 1999-mid 2004 in V6 models. Many years and many models. Includes MDX, CL, TL, Accord V6, Odyssey.

Why remember old vehicle failures? Because people still own and drive them. Also, there are lessons learned as to what caused the problem including inadequate oil flow to third gear clutch and rough steels. Also, loose bearings causing loud noises are a problem. Important for rebuilds.

As George Santayana wrote "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

Failure rate? Likely greater than one in ten for time when one owner has the Honda Acura V6 from involved years.

CR asks owners about reported problems in the past year. So each dot on a CR chart would be reported problems for one year. For more than one year, add reported problems over several years. The average time a new car owner kept a car was 6-7 yrs in 2016. Add multiple years reported problems for these years Honda Acura V6 vehicles and you often get more than one in ten.

Reading CR charts. Chart does not give detail to exact reported problem. Only the manufacturer knows for sure but they are not telling. Black dots or half black dots on CR chart mean 3 percent or greater reported problems in the last year. Is it 3 or is it 10? CR does not say. There is no stated maximum. Three black dots in consecutive years should mean 9 per cent or greater. Some Honda transmissions show black or half black dots for five consecutive years. This would mean 15 per cent or greater when the chart was written. There is no maximum. CR charts would be identical with three per cent or five percent or any greater number of reported problems in the same area. If failure rate were five percent per year over five years, five year problems reported would be fifty percent.

Have attached charts including how to use charts from CR 2007 buying guide or April 2009 issue for MDX, CL, TL, Accord V6, Odyssey. Acura CL shows black dots for three years 2001, 2002, 2003. Meaning nine percent or greater if you stop counting after 2003. Most Acura CL models lived longer than 2003. So more failed after 2003. TL showed black dots 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003 and half black 1999. Odyssey half black or black 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003. TL and Odyssey charts suggests fifteen or more percent reported problems.


Old chestnuts only? Not. Some new. The ZF designed 9 speed gets complaints of rough shifting where it is used. Including Honda.

 

[fdcg27]

My source is a guy who now has had his own shop for a couple of decades having previously been the lead tech at a local Honda store.
He works only on Honda/Acura cars and has therefore seen enough of them that he has a real solid idea of the failure rate of these transaxles, and it ain't nearly as high as you seem to contend.
He's even been to NSX school, so is no slouch in technical knowledge and experience.
Not sure why you bothered with violating CU's copyright, since what you've posted above means nothing in quantifiable terms.

 

[Railrust]

Interesting topic, I've personally always kind of babied my vehicles and gotten high mileage out of them, BUT if I hadn't, who knows if it would have made a negative difference? I tend to think it would but I can't be sure. One vehicle I owned that I babied, lasted 278,000 miles before I traded it in (not a lot of problems), the other that I babied started drinking oil at 170,000 miles and I had to get rid of it, and there were lots of other little problems that started.

Honestly I think it depends on the make and model of the car, some cars are just bust better than others...doesn't matter what you do...if you have a car that's not reliable and built well, there's really nothing you can do to prevent the repairs from coming (whether you baby it or not, it'll get you). Meanwhile you can probably beat the tar out of the higher quality car and it'll be fine. It depends. But I've babied all of them...sometimes it helped, sometimes it didn't, but it usually correlated to the quality of the car.

 

[WylieCoyote]

The most reliable car I've ever owned was given some of the worst treatment I've had to dish out. 1993 Plymouth Sundance with the Mitsubishi 3.0 V6 & 5-speed. I flogged and raced that car every chance I got. While 75,000 miles isn't a lot to some of you guys on here, it achieved that mileage with zero issues or repairs. I put 2 sets of tires, and one battery in that car in the 4.5 years I had it. Religious oil changes at 3,000 miles, and the best gas I could buy (Amoco Ultimate, then Exxon 93 after I moved). These engines are notorious on the car forms for smoking and burning oil. Mine never did either. I think longevity has a lot to do with your maintenance habits, combined with your driving habits. Flog it, and do 7,500 mile OCIs, and burn the cheapest 87 you can find, then you may expect more issues.

 

[NavyVet88]

Originally Posted by gfh77665
I have wondered about this too. IMO there is a luck element involved in vehicle longevity, or lack there of. Still, I maintain my vehicles quite well. I don't want to ask myself "what if" later on. I drive my vehicles moderately but don't abuse them. A happy medium I believe is better than either of the extremes.


Yes. I am the same way. I do my best to keep fluids rotated in as timely as a manner as possible, however I have only had to replace an alternator in 176k miles. The car had only 6 miles on it when I drive it off the lot(2013 civic 1.8L) and I doubt that my fluid upkeep helped the alternator love as long as it did for mileage anyways. I too agree that luck plays a huge part. My dad for example can drive his trucks beyond 300k with only replacing maybe a water pump the whole time and his trucks hardly see pavement. And that's with not changing his oil on time at all. I've seen his oil changes show spent oil that was solid black and full of crude too.

 

[UncleDave]

" High end" cars have the problem of sticker shock neglect.

I've seen a fair share of worn German cars on the lift - many at much lower miles than you'd expect because component wear gets ignore then it impacts the rest of a subsystem.

Perhaps the components do last longer (this is debatable) one thing is for sure, parts and service are more expensive than American and Japanese brands which cause a whole other level of problems - neglect due to bill shock.

On higher-end brands service gets ignored quite frequently because of the expense - then the lone bad component synergistically accelerates wear in the rest of the system.

Back to the lift - my buddies wifes little convertible Mercedes would be one example - he ignored a bad ball joint (or some type of rubber bushing joint) and the load xfer wore out the whole front end on that side within 5K miles.

You see this on a lease pickup a few years into ownership a guy buys a "high end" brand at a steep discount - then a year later he takes it in for thunking noises- he's then greeted with an MB/BMW/Audi/Jaguar dealers MSRP bill for a few grand, and decides to put it off for a while because of cost- then the whole thing escalates into a larger bill.

If the car were a corolla or civic camry etc...the problem would have been taken care of and the overall bill a lot lower.


Drive it easy and everything will last longer.

UD

 

[thrace]

Originally Posted by fdcg27
My source is a guy who now has had his own shop for a couple of decades having previously been the lead tech at a local Honda store.
He works only on Honda/Acura cars and has therefore seen enough of them that he has a real solid idea of the failure rate of these transaxles, and it ain't nearly as high as you seem to contend.
He's even been to NSX school, so is no slouch in technical knowledge and experience.
Not sure why you bothered with violating CU's copyright, since what you've posted above means nothing in quantifiable terms.

Sometimes when there's smoke, there's fire.

CR's reported problem results do have validity although we don't every detail about how data is evaluated. Data is from subscribers. Not just an editor. CR is not out to make Honda look bad as some Honda models are rated well. Cars that are many people would think are full of problems like Italians are found unreliable by CR.

Dashboard Light finds Acura TL and other Honda Acura vehicles in this time frame have many more transmission issues than industry average.
http://dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Acura_CL.html

Author describes methods here. http://www.dashboard-light.com/click-here-first/

Not without fault but better than "some guy says".

In some discussions, someone states, "I know a guy who says bla bla bla". What does that mean in quantifiable terms? Don't know the guy. If the guy was a dealer employee, he might not see out of warranty transmission repairs as warranty was 3 yr, 36,000 miles and many owners don't return to the dealer after the warranty expires. Dealer employees have lied to my face several times. Don't know the guy.

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

Does to me. My first date was in our faded gray 47 Oldsmobile torpedo body with an in-line flat head six. About five mile from home, the brakes started smoking and locked up because my dad had adjusted them too tight. Had to wait there while he rode city bus to town and backed shoes off. Took girl home after dropping dad off. By Monday morning that girl had told all her chatty friends about our so called date and the entire school knew old hosteen went down in flames on his first date. Never forgot that experience and I take care of everything I have, especially our vehicle. Like Jackie Chiles says, just another of my many public humiliations.

 

[vavavroom]

Originally Posted by dogememe
It's common sense that a gently-driven vehicle is going to last longer and require less repairs but how much does it really matter? I beat on my Escape on a daily basis (I floor it frequently, and generally drive harshly) and I have no issues with the engine or transmission (for now)... If I look how most fleet vehicles are treated (not well) it seems like it doesn't actually matter... Do we have any evidence it makes a difference?


Just compare side by side two cars of the same vintage, one well-taken care off and one abused all the time, and the visual difference alone will give you a clue.

 

[DGXR]

Driving a car too gently can cause problems, as can driving too aggressively. 95% I drive somewhere in the middle, maybe a little on the gentle side. 5% I rip it once in a while to clean out the cobwebs... "Italian tune up" style. Never had any problems. I keep on top of all maintenance -- not OCD, just normal consistent service.

All things being equal, I want to say that modern vehicles generally live longer than older vehicles. I say this because design, engineering, materials and technology have come a long way in a short time. Lubricant technology is light years ahead from just 10 years ago. But not all automakers are bringing their A game, some are cheaping out to make more profit and it shows.