Add lubegard to Redline D4?

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HI all...I just completed the second of three drain and fills on my 2008 Honda Element with Redline D4. The vehicle has 87,000 miles and has only had 1 single drain and fill by the original owner at 60,000 miles (Honda DW-1...at the dealership). The vehicle shifts OK but I notice a delay in the upshift from first to second gear...won't upshift until over 2000 rpm with gentle throttle...with any more aggressive acceleration that's more like 2,500-3,000 rpm before shifting into second gear (normal for this vehicle?). All shifts up and down are smooth including the 1-2 upshift...it just seems a little delayed. I've been a big fan of Redline D4 and have used it before with no issues. I'm debating adding Lubegard on the third (and final) fluid change. I'm not sure whether I'd use the red or platinum if I use it at all. I know Honda uses a highly friction modified fluid. As the Redline D4 is what is recommended for Hondas specifying Z-1 fluid (which this vehicle does), would it need the additional friction modifiers of the platinum or just add the red and call it a day? I've always used lubegard in my transmissions and my old Mercury Villager (now driven by my sister for the last 4 years) is shifting great at 220K miles without a transmission service in 100K miles or so with a D4/lubegard red cocktail in the transmission. As far as the delayed 1-2 upshift I may have to check the condition of the solenoids if there isn't any change in that behavior. Any input or advice is appreciated.
 
I know nothing of Honda's first off. But this almost sounds like the TPS is going bad. Trans won't shift because it's not being told to shift. Also could be the sensor that tells the ECU the vacuum at certain RPM's.
 
I would skip the LubeGard. The Red Line already contains their version of what they believe are enhanced modifiers along with some ester. May be too much of a good thing imo. The delayed 1-2 upshift sounds more like programming or the TPS or something akin to that.
 
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Skip the LG. I've used Red Line (the D6) in Honda's with the same tranny design as what you have. It works well, but shifts aren't _quite_ as smooth as with DW-1. I only use DW-1 in my current Honda. I also have a very good relationship with my local dealer parts man.
 
After recent analysis of dw1 to dexclones I'd stick with dw1. It's a Honda, and the chemistry of the fluid is significantly different from anything else. Anything else like Toyota or Hyundai I'd go with the redline and lubegard. Will other fluids grenade the tranny? Probably not.
 
Personally & IMO, that 1st to 2nd gear shift sounds typical for an older Honda. It just seem to be the way Honda's rev'd...as compared to everything(auto tranny related today) where, all trannies seem to shift waaaaay sooner and lug more often in the name of fuel economy.

However, IDK that particular ELEMENT in the way that the tranny shifted prior to your ownership. But, it's 2.4L(Accord drivetrain) in typical older Honda fashion, seemed to be that way...again, IMO!

My buddy, an owner of many Honda vehicles over the last 30ish years, always said that the one thing he didn't like in Honda automatic trannies is the way that the tranny hung on to gears compared to his Toyota's, in which he has owned many of as well over the last 30ish years.

I also don't think that you need the LubeGard RED, though I don't believe it will help/hurt either way.
 
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I don't argue that the DW-1 is a unique fluid...but question whether it provides superior protection or performance over the D4. If I did I'd simply use the DW-1 (which is cheaper). On the contrary, the high incidence of problems and outright failure among these Honda transmissions (especially the 4 and 5 speed units of the late 90's through mid-2000's), many of them at lower mileage were occurring with the requisite Honda transmission fluid. I don't believe that the significant difference in chemistry and additives have proven to be an issue for the competing fluids that state that they are compatible and safe to use (at least the better ones like Maxlife, Amsoil and Redline...I'm sure there are others). I also doubt that the companies that represent their transmission fluid as compatible would state that if they thought (or knew) otherwise. If that were the case I think we'd have seen a rash of failures or issues with them as many Honda owners have been using them in place of the recommended Honda fluids for quite a few years (including me in my old 1996 Accord V6...ran Redline D4 and Lubegard black in that car...worked great)...many of them with tens of thousands (or more) miles of use with no reported issues. I believe that despite the differences and valid concerns based on the facts presented, there are superior choices to the Honda fluid available.
 
I believe your being a bit näive.

That to one side, I think you're doing more harm than good by trying to alter the chemistry of the ATF you've purposefully chosen by adding LG.

It's your dime. Spend it however you want and let us know what happens 300k from now.
 
Stick to DW1 spec fluid. Valvoline, Amsoil or even Castrol. Ran Valvoline in our 08 CRV with no issues. I may run Amsoil in our 19 Pilot.
 
Originally Posted by ARB1977
Stick to DW1 spec fluid. Valvoline, Amsoil or even Castrol. Ran Valvoline in our 08 CRV with no issues. I may run Amsoil in our 19 Pilot.

There is only one fluid that sticks to the ATF DW-1 spec and that is the Honda brand. That's the point of this thread, Honda does not license that specification.
 
Originally Posted by oilmaven
I don't argue that the DW-1 is a unique fluid...but question whether it provides superior protection or performance over the D4. If I did I'd simply use the DW-1 (which is cheaper). On the contrary, the high incidence of problems and outright failure among these Honda transmissions (especially the 4 and 5 speed units of the late 90's through mid-2000's), many of them at lower mileage were occurring with the requisite Honda transmission fluid.


And what criteria or data do you have to differentiate between design or premature failures and those definitively caused by fluid failures? You seem to be suggesting that the manf. specified fluid resulted in failures.


Originally Posted by oilmaven
...I also doubt that the companies that represent their transmission fluid as compatible would state that if they thought (or knew) otherwise....



This is where the informed consumer needs to ask the manf. that promises the coverage to provide testing data to support the claimed overage.
 
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OK...I'll give on the Lubegard...probably doesn't need it. As far as the other "Honda spec" fluids, they are no more "spec" than the D4...especially the omission by all of them of the rather unique use of significant zinc in the Honda stuff (I believe that also applies to the disparate chemistries and lack of the aforementioned zinc in the Idemitsu "clones" which are being investigated here apparently...why would Idemitsu claim that their "clone" fluids are replacements for the DW-1 yet have such a different add pack?...here's where the complicated stuff shows up). Yet their manufacturers advertise them as so (it's right on the bottle) and people use them (including people on this very site) and like them for whatever reason. Redline recommends the D4 for Z-1 applications (which would be Hondas prior to 2011 such as my Element when they replaced it with the DW-1...although Honda back-specs the DW-1 for the Z-1 applications because it's supposedly superior and also because they don't make the Z-1 anymore...) and quite a few Honda owners on the forums are using it (along with Maxlife and Amsoil). Others refuse to use anything but DW-1 (but I've never seen a case where the DW-1 users cite that they knew where an alternative fluid didn't work or caused some sort of damage). Why would they be using these other fluids in their rides? Could it be their great specs? Could it be that that the shifting doesn't seem to degrade as quickly as with the Honda fluid (which was my experience with my old Accord before I switched to the D4)? Whatever the reason they use and recommend them (my brother is using Maxlife and Lubegard red in his '06 Ridgeline and is happy with his choice...never an issue and the truck shifts great...his choice is pretty much based on the reasonable price of the Maxlife...in any case it has been working for him). I'm just not seeing the evidence of serious issues with these quality alternatives despite their different chemistries.

I've been on this site for many years...and have nothing but the highest respect for its members (although things do get a little testy at times). In the end I'm making my decision based on my own experience and betting my dime on the Redline.
 
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by ARB1977
Stick to DW1 spec fluid. Valvoline, Amsoil or even Castrol. Ran Valvoline in our 08 CRV with no issues. I may run Amsoil in our 19 Pilot.

There is only one fluid that sticks to the ATF DW-1 spec and that is the Honda brand. That's the point of this thread, Honda does not license that specification.

Even universal atf that has the DW1 spec work just as good. I use Amsoil blue cap in my Tacoma that is WS spec. I would use Amsoil with confidence in both transmissions.
 
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Originally Posted by ARB1977
Even universal atf that has the DW1 spec work just as good. I use Amsoil blue cap in my Tacoma that is WS spec. I would use Amsoil with confidence in both transmissions.

But again, no universal fluid has the ATF DW-1 spec, it might work "just as good" but it is not DW-1. No fluid except the Honda brand has the actual specification. Same for the Amsoil product and WS, it is only "recommended for". It does not have the actual Toyota WS specification. Whether it works fine is another question but it does not have the WS specification.
 
Originally Posted by oilmaven
OK...I'll give on the Lubegard...probably doesn't need it. As far as the other "Honda spec" fluids, they are no more "spec" than the D4...especially the omission by all of them of the rather unique use of significant zinc in the Honda stuff (I believe that also applies to the disparate chemistries and lack of the aforementioned zinc in the Idemitsu "clones" which are being investigated here apparently...why would Idemitsu claim that their "clone" fluids are replacements for the DW-1 yet have such a different add pack?...here's where the complicated stuff shows up). I'm just not seeing the evidence of serious issues with these quality alternatives despite their different chemistries....

...I've been on this site for many years...and have nothing but the highest respect for its members (although things do get a little testy at times). In the end I'm making my decision based on my own experience and betting my dime on the Redline.


Would you use the Honda specific DW-1 in a Step-shift automatic as you seem to imply they're all the same?
 
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Quote
Why would they be using these other fluids in their rides? Could it be their great specs? Could it be that that the shifting doesn't seem to degrade as quickly as with the Honda fluid (which was my experience with my old Accord before I switched to the D4)? Whatever the reason they use and recommend them.


That is called confirmation bias (I chose this, therefore I take far greater notice of things that validate my decision because, after all, I make very good decisions). We all have it, we all do it, and it is very useful in most everyday activities, but it also _can_ interfere significantly with good decision-making in some situations.

That point notwithstanding, there are SAE papers on the topic of ‘universal' ATF performance in a range of A/Ts. I bought one of them a few years ago, wherein the researchers compared their own universal ATF development against a range of Asian-brand automotive ATF specs in terms mainly of frictional characteristics, including the durability thereof.

From memory:
They did this through the use of certain-spec test clutch plates. The general gist of the paper was that their universal fluid did a fairly good job of covering the characteristics they tested for. They did not disclose what manufacturers' specs they were testing against, of course, but there was one of the specs that they weren't as close to covering as the rest. Too, they used a different test plate than what is apparently called for in that one spec.

Given a range of facts available, one might choose to speculate as to which of the Asian brands that particular outlier was. One needn't do that, though, to see that universals aren't any better than ‘pretty good' at any time at covering everything. One also needn't speculate to know that this one particular paper can't provide data on whether the universal fluid comes particularly close to covering the one outlier spec, because they didn't use the right type of friction material for the tests for that spec.

To be clear, I'm still in the camp of supporting everyone making their own choice when they're spending their own money. Red Line makes good products, IMO. I've used many of them for a lot of years, and I have rather more data on some of that use than the standard UOAs one sees on this board. I just don't put universals in Honda A/Ts at this point. I have too much experience with the subtleties and details, and I have far too good a relationship with my Honda parts guy to want to look elsewhere.
 
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by ARB1977
Even universal atf that has the DW1 spec work just as good. I use Amsoil blue cap in my Tacoma that is WS spec. I would use Amsoil with confidence in both transmissions.

But again, no universal fluid has the ATF DW-1 spec, it might work "just as good" but it is not DW-1. No fluid except the Honda brand has the actual specification. Same for the Amsoil product and WS, it is only "recommended for". It does not have the actual Toyota WS specification. Whether it works fine is another question but it does not have the WS specification.




DW1 isn't anything magical. If your worried about it then use the Honda fluid.
 
Originally Posted by ARB1977
DW1 isn't anything magical. If your worried about it then use the Honda fluid.

I'm not especially worried about anything, but you said:
Originally Posted by ARB1977
Stick to DW1 spec fluid. Valvoline, Amsoil or even Castrol. Ran Valvoline in our 08 CRV with no issues. I may run Amsoil in our 19 Pilot.
I was only pointing out the reality is that no other fluid including Amsoil, Castrol or Valvoline have the ATF DW-1 specification, so if you really wanted to "stick to DW1 spec fluid" as you said there is only one way to do so.

And as far as it being "magical" that's not a technical term I use. However, it is different as MolaKule has shown.

This topic seems to be a difficult one for some certain boutique brand users.
 
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