:::Longterm Durability/Reliability Of Transmissions Vs Transaxles?

[NDL]

I know that a lot of my fellow posters would suggest a severe duty service cycle interval, when it comes to the time at which transmission fluid should be changed, and I agree. Nonetheless, it's my opinion, and I could be wrong, that, sans a manufacturer or two, unless a person is meticulous as to how often they change their tranny fluid, the transaxle will need servicing or repair during the course of 200 thousand miles.

At some point, I will have to replace my trusty 2001 Ford Ranger, and I wanted to go with a truck with a stick. Why? Because in my experience, outside of replacing clutches and an occasional fluid change, a manual transmission can run 200k plus, with few, if any, issues.

In talking this over with owners of trucks, I heard a lot of: "I don't tow with my vehicle, but I have been somewhat lax as to how often I change the ATF fluid, but I have got 150-200k on the truck, with no issues."

I assumed that the transmissions in basic work trucks, (e.g. the Chevy Colorado/Silverado; Ford F150; Ram 1500), were units similar what are put into cars, but mildly adapted for truck use. Is this correct?

Or is the rule of thumb that basic work trucks are fit with transmissions that are beefed up, and can rack up the miles with minimal service, and are trouble free?

I ask all of this as a guy who will buy a truck new/nearly new, and will drive it into the ground (200,000+ miles).

TIA

 

[MolaKule]

i prefer driving mine above ground but each to his own.

The newer Step-Shift automatics of today are tougher than AT's of yor, but I still like to shift a manual.

Either way, changing ATF or MTF on a severe-service schedule certainly helps with longevity.

Member clinebarger could possibly comment on which AT transmissions in which trucks really have "beefed-up" internals or not.

 

[Phishin]

I think in today's world, you can go 150k miles in nearly any vehicle (especially a truck) and NEVER change the ATF and rarely have an issue.

How long will it take you to rack up 200k miles?? And by then, you may WANT a different vehicle or your vehicular needs may change. Life is hard to predict.

So, I maintain my vehicles as if I'm going to drive them forever.....Because I can't predict if/when my career or financial situation will suddenly shift either up or down.

As far as your transmission question goes: A Truck transmission (whether it's a Silverado Work Truck or the ultra high-end Denali/High Country) they all use the same transmission. If you want a beefier truck transmission then what's offered in any Chevy 1500, you'll need to buy a 2500 or 3500. I'm talking about Full Size trucks. I have no idea what GM puts in those Colorado's.

GM truck transmissions are easy to maintain: At 30-50k miles, do a fluid swap and drop the pan and change the transmission filter. Then every 30-50k miles change the fluid. When you hit 200-250k miles, change the filter again. It's not rocket science.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted by NDL

I assumed that the transmissions in basic work trucks, (e.g. the Chevy Colorado/Silverado; Ford F150; Ram 1500), were units similar what are put into cars, but mildly adapted for truck use. Is this correct?

Or is the rule of thumb that basic work trucks are fit with transmissions that are beefed up, and can rack up the miles with minimal service, and are trouble free?


The former is more or less the case. Still the case today, IIRC only Toyota and Nissan used units that were physically different than the ones installed in Lexus or Infiniti cars for their trucks. The new Ram trucks now use the ZF 8HP series, not too far off from what's installed in a BMW X5/Range Rover.

GM happily installed the Turbo 350/700R4/4L60E in their 1/2 ton class trucks, Ford did the same thing with the C4/4R70W and Mopar's RWD offering was either the A727 or a RWD-version of the 42TE/62TE. Only difference was any auxillary cooling and adaptions for 4WD. Dunno about Ford, but I know two people whose 4L60Es imploded. Both were 2-door GMT400 Blazers. One of them seems like the classic shell failure.

I think as long as the fluid is replaced, the filter is done between the 30-50K mark initially to get rid of any assembly junk and break-in metals and if the fluid is kept cool you should be able to hit the 150-200K mark on a modern transmission easy.

 

[UncleDave]

I think you mean Automatic Vs Manual Gearbox reliability.

Small trucks-like rangers have separate gearbox and axles vs a transaxle assembly where both the trans and the axle share a housing.

I've had problems with both.

I've had manuals lose synchros over 100K and case leaks, ive had toque converters go, and worn out clutch packs

The autos are more sensitive with heat being a bigger issue but maintained well they are most often lifetime components- keep em cool and they last a lot longer.

They are quite poorly filtered from the factory in nearly every case benefit from a real filter, magnetic filtration, and a regular drain and fills has kept them trouble-free and oil tight for me.

I've seen turbo 400's hold 2000 HP when built.

UD

 

[CBR.worm]

I don't know. I've always maintained my transmission as well as I can, and I haven't had one fail since the early nineties (before that, I had a ton of failures w/ good maint.). Aside from one that was defective from the factory. I typically sell them between 180-220K miles, so maybe I get rid of them at just the right time.

Would they have grenaded earlier if I hadn't changed the oil? I like to think that I am extending their life. I also generally buy RWD vehicles that are known to be reliable. FWD vs. RWD may not really make a difference, but in my mind, there are not the space constraints in a longitudinal application, and they may have also better cooling capability.

 

[NDL]

Originally Posted by MolaKule
i prefer driving mine above ground but each to his own.

The newer Step-Shift automatics of today are tougher than AT's of yor, but I still like to shift a manual.

Either way, changing ATF or MTF on a severe-service schedule certainly helps with longevity.


Me also. And while I am not driving an F350 Super Duty, I used to sit in stop and go traffic in NYC, daily, and the common complaints of dealing with a clutch are, for the most part, complaints.

 

[NDL]

Originally Posted by Phishin
I think in today's world, you can go 150k miles in nearly any vehicle (especially a truck) and NEVER change the ATF and rarely have an issue.

How long will it take you to rack up 200k miles?? And by then, you may WANT a different vehicle or your vehicular needs may change. Life is hard to predict.

So, I maintain my vehicles as if I'm going to drive them forever.....Because I can't predict if/when my career or financial situation will suddenly shift either up or down.

As far as your transmission question goes: A Truck transmission (whether it's a Silverado Work Truck or the ultra high-end Denali/High Country) they all use the same transmission. If you want a beefier truck transmission then what's offered in any Chevy 1500, you'll need to buy a 2500 or 3500. I'm talking about Full Size trucks. I have no idea what GM puts in those Colorado's.

GM truck transmissions are easy to maintain: At 30-50k miles, do a fluid swap and drop the pan and change the transmission filter. Then every 30-50k miles change the fluid. When you hit 200-250k miles, change the filter again. It's not rocket science.


Sounds like a safe and sane plan

 

[NDL]

Originally Posted by nthach
Originally Posted by NDL

I assumed that the transmissions in basic work trucks, (e.g. the Chevy Colorado/Silverado; Ford F150; Ram 1500), were units similar what are put into cars, but mildly adapted for truck use. Is this correct?

Or is the rule of thumb that basic work trucks are fit with transmissions that are beefed up, and can rack up the miles with minimal service, and are trouble free?


The former is more or less the case. Still the case today, IIRC only Toyota and Nissan used units that were physically different than the ones installed in Lexus or Infiniti cars for their trucks. The new Ram trucks now use the ZF 8HP series, not too far off from what's installed in a BMW X5/Range Rover.

GM happily installed the Turbo 350/700R4/4L60E in their 1/2 ton class trucks, Ford did the same thing with the C4/4R70W and Mopar's RWD offering was either the A727 or a RWD-version of the 42TE/62TE. Only difference was any auxillary cooling and adaptions for 4WD. Dunno about Ford, but I know two people whose 4L60Es imploded. Both were 2-door GMT400 Blazers. One of them seems like the classic shell failure.

I think as long as the fluid is replaced, the filter is done between the 30-50K mark initially to get rid of any assembly junk and break-in metals and if the fluid is kept cool you should be able to hit the 150-200K mark on a modern transmission easy.


I thank you for your reply

 

[NDL]

Originally Posted by UncleDave
I think you mean Automatic Vs Manual Gearbox reliability.

Small trucks-like rangers have separate gearbox and axles vs a transaxle assembly where both the trans and the axle share a housing.

I've had problems with both.

I've had manuals lose synchros over 100K and case leaks, ive had toque converters go, and worn out clutch packs

The autos are more sensitive with heat being a bigger issue but maintained well they are most often lifetime components- keep em cool and they last a lot longer.

They are quite poorly filtered from the factory in nearly every case benefit from a real filter, magnetic filtration, and a regular drain and fills has kept them trouble-free and oil tight for me.

I've seen turbo 400's hold 2000 HP when built.

UD





I appreciate your reply. I purposed to compare transaxles to transmissions, because I have experienced, or have heard of others, having transaxle failure. Meanwhile work trucks are not always maintained - if we're talking about very small fleets - yet they seem to operate flawlessly over long stretches. I wondered why that might be so.

 

[NDL]

Originally Posted by CBR.worm
I don't know. I've always maintained my transmission as well as I can, and I haven't had one fail since the early nineties (before that, I had a ton of failures w/ good maint.). Aside from one that was defective from the factory. I typically sell them between 180-220K miles, so maybe I get rid of them at just the right time.

Would they have grenaded earlier if I hadn't changed the oil? I like to think that I am extending their life. I also generally buy RWD vehicles that are known to be reliable. FWD vs. RWD may not really make a difference, but in my mind, there are not the space constraints in a longitudinal application, and they may have also better cooling capability.


What you wrote makes sense; perhaps the better cooling capacity makes the difference.

 

[clinebarger]

FWD Transaxles rarely share any common parts with RWD Transmissions.

*FCA uses a ZF 8HP in their trucks.....Good reliable unit.

GM & Ford are in a state of flux since moving on from their 6 speed auto's. They are in a joint venture to build 10 speed autos. Meaning GM is moving on from their in-house Hydramatic 8 speed (8L45E/8L90E) really quickly, Probably for the best! I'm guessing the 8L45E will soldier on in the Colorado/Canyon for a little while.
That's bad news for current 8L45E/8L90E owners.....GM will be less likely to actually fix all the annoying problems. Band-Aid 'til warranty expires.
Hopefully the 10 speed will be a good unit for both manufacturers.

*Ford 6R80....Based on a ZF 6HP is a good unit.
*GM/Hydramatic 6L45E/6L80E/6L90E are good units. The early units (2007-2009) had some teething issues.
*Toyota/Aisin A760 6 speed used in the Tundra is a good unit.

 

[Ws6]

I dont change ATF. Waste of money. My Dad's work van (2000ish 5.3 Vortec GMC 2500) got 435k miles or so on it. OEM atf. No breaky. My last cx5 Mazda I traded off at 106k miles. OEM atf. No breaky. My grandparents toyota Avalon...374k miles. I think they did atf at 200k or so for some odd reason. Otherwise no service on it. No breaky. I just buy quality and follow mfr guidelines. No atf changes unless mfr recommends.

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by Ws6
I dont change ATF. Waste of money. My Dad's work van (2000ish 5.3 Vortec GMC 2500) got 435k miles or so on it. OEM atf. No breaky. My last cx5 Mazda I traded off at 106k miles. OEM atf. No breaky. My grandparents toyota Avalon...374k miles. I think they did atf at 200k or so for some odd reason. Otherwise no service on it. No breaky. I just buy quality and follow mfr guidelines. No atf changes unless mfr recommends.


We do the same. Who'd have thought 2 CVT equipped Dodge's (the sheer horror on some people's faces when you combine those words right there) and an abused Grand Caravan would be so problem free from a "lack" in maintenance

 

[clinebarger]

Originally Posted by Ws6
I dont change ATF. Waste of money. My Dad's work van (2000ish 5.3 Vortec GMC 2500) got 435k miles or so on it. OEM atf. No breaky. My last cx5 Mazda I traded off at 106k miles. OEM atf. No breaky. My grandparents toyota Avalon...374k miles. I think they did atf at 200k or so for some odd reason. Otherwise no service on it. No breaky. I just buy quality and follow mfr guidelines. No atf changes unless mfr recommends.


Such a small sample size, To say changing ATF is a waste of money is your opinion with little fact to back it up. A GM 4L80E & a Aisin A541E are forged anvils of the transmission world & forming such an opinion based on them is a fool's errand.

 

[Railrust]

I think the typical 1500 pickup trucks are pretty basic in terms of being beefed up, and unfortunately they're really not.

As for longevity, it depends on brand, use and application. As for GM, the 1500 Silverado 2014-2018 have had transmission issues, but it's hit or miss. When the engine goes into V4 mode, the transmission shifts. The tranny is shifting A LOT! There have been torque converter failures, there have been transmission failures...maybe more on the 8 speed than the 6, but there have been problems with both. It probably depends on how you drive, if you tow, if you are constantly having that thing stressed, overheated, and constantly searching for gears. I know temp is a hot topic on the forums...thermostat bypass, changing fluid, different fluids (using Amsoil), etc. Bottom line...I think it helps to get yourself on a regular maintenance schedule with all of these transmissions. A simple drain and fill every 30k-40k, with maybe a pan drop and filter replacement every 75-100k miles, isn't going to hurt anything. What's that going to cost you? An extra couple hundred bucks over the course of five years?? Small potatoes compared to replacing a tranny at 150k miles. And let's say you "only" get an additional 50-75k over the under maintained transmission? That's still a big deal, here's why...if you keep that truck to 200k mikes and then trade it in, you'll have never had to throw a new transmission in it (and spend $2k-$3k on it). And even if the preventive maintenance didn't help you in any way shape or form, what are you out? $200? That's no big deal in the grand scheme of things.

I've never lost a tranny in my life, and I've gone 287,000 miles on a 1999 Honda Accord. The Accords were known for tranmssion failure. There was a class action suit against Honda and they eventually extended their factory warranty until 120,000 miles for the transmissions. I never had one single issue, as I drain and filled mine every 20,000 miles (it took 3 quarts and it was easy to do once a year).

I don't think you can ever go wrong by over maintaining a vehicle.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by Railrust
I think the typical 1500 pickup trucks are pretty basic in terms of being beefed up, and unfortunately they're really not.

As for longevity, it depends on brand, use and application. As for GM, the 1500 Silverado 2014-2018 have had transmission issues, but it's hit or miss. When the engine goes into V4 mode, the transmission shifts. The tranny is shifting A LOT! There have been torque converter failures, there have been transmission failures...maybe more on the 8 speed than the 6, but there have been problems with both. It probably depends on how you drive, if you tow, if you are constantly having that thing stressed, overheated, and constantly searching for gears. I know temp is a hot topic on the forums...thermostat bypass, changing fluid, different fluids (using Amsoil), etc. Bottom line...I think it helps to get yourself on a regular maintenance schedule with all of these transmissions. A simple drain and fill every 30k-40k, with maybe a pan drop and filter replacement every 75-100k miles, isn't going to hurt anything. What's that going to cost you? An extra couple hundred bucks over the course of five years?? Small potatoes compared to replacing a tranny at 150k miles. And let's say you "only" get an additional 50-75k over the under maintained transmission? That's still a big deal, here's why...if you keep that truck to 200k mikes and then trade it in, you'll have never had to throw a new transmission in it (and spend $2k-$3k on it). And even if the preventive maintenance didn't help you in any way shape or form, what are you out? $200? That's no big deal in the grand scheme of things.

I've never lost a tranny in my life, and I've gone 287,000 miles on a 1999 Honda Accord. The Accords were known for tranmssion failure. There was a class action suit against Honda and they eventually extended their factory warranty until 120,000 miles for the transmissions. I never had one single issue, as I drain and filled mine every 20,000 miles (it took 3 quarts and it was easy to do once a year).

I don't think you can ever go wrong by over maintaining a vehicle.

I tried that. Made the transmission quirky. Leave 'em alone unless the manufacturer says to do otherwise!

 

[NDL]

Originally Posted by clinebarger
FWD Transaxles rarely share any common parts with RWD Transmissions.

*FCA uses a ZF 8HP in their trucks.....Good reliable unit.

GM & Ford are in a state of flux since moving on from their 6 speed auto's. They are in a joint venture to build 10 speed autos. Meaning GM is moving on from their in-house Hydramatic 8 speed (8L45E/8L90E) really quickly, Probably for the best! I'm guessing the 8L45E will soldier on in the Colorado/Canyon for a little while.
That's bad news for current 8L45E/8L90E owners.....GM will be less likely to actually fix all the annoying problems. Band-Aid 'til warranty expires.
Hopefully the 10 speed will be a good unit for both manufacturers.

*Ford 6R80....Based on a ZF 6HP is a good unit.
*GM/Hydramatic 6L45E/6L80E/6L90E are good units. The early units (2007-2009) had some teething issues.
*Toyota/Aisin A760 6 speed used in the Tundra is a good unit.



Thank you for your reply...a lot of good info was provided.

 

[NDL]

Originally Posted by Railrust
I think the typical 1500 pickup trucks are pretty basic in terms of being beefed up, and unfortunately they're really not.

As for longevity, it depends on brand, use and application. As for GM, the 1500 Silverado 2014-2018 have had transmission issues, but it's hit or miss. When the engine goes into V4 mode, the transmission shifts. The tranny is shifting A LOT! There have been torque converter failures, there have been transmission failures...maybe more on the 8 speed than the 6, but there have been problems with both. It probably depends on how you drive, if you tow, if you are constantly having that thing stressed, overheated, and constantly searching for gears. I know temp is a hot topic on the forums...thermostat bypass, changing fluid, different fluids (using Amsoil), etc. Bottom line...I think it helps to get yourself on a regular maintenance schedule with all of these transmissions. A simple drain and fill every 30k-40k, with maybe a pan drop and filter replacement every 75-100k miles, isn't going to hurt anything. What's that going to cost you? An extra couple hundred bucks over the course of five years?? Small potatoes compared to replacing a tranny at 150k miles. And let's say you "only" get an additional 50-75k over the under maintained transmission? That's still a big deal, here's why...if you keep that truck to 200k mikes and then trade it in, you'll have never had to throw a new transmission in it (and spend $2k-$3k on it). And even if the preventive maintenance didn't help you in any way shape or form, what are you out? $200? That's no big deal in the grand scheme of things.

I've never lost a tranny in my life, and I've gone 287,000 miles on a 1999 Honda Accord. The Accords were known for tranmssion failure. There was a class action suit against Honda and they eventually extended their factory warranty until 120,000 miles for the transmissions. I never had one single issue, as I drain and filled mine every 20,000 miles (it took 3 quarts and it was easy to do once a year).

I don't think you can ever go wrong by over maintaining a vehicle.


Thank you for providing sound advice. Much agreed that you can't go wrong with overmaintaining a vehicle