Does any of the engine manufacture have a limit on wear metals? The reason I'm asking is: I have a CAT C-15 and my UOA @500 hours had Fe @ 96 PPM and the 1000 hour went to 196PPM. The lab I am using flagged the oil at the 500 hours saying 96 is too high. They are going by average of what they see (which is 20PPM @ 265 hours). The engine has 2500 hours and I am using AMSOIL Signature Series 5-30 (DHD)
Wear Metal Max?
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dnewton3
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Yes, in fact, some do.
download this: https://www2.calrecycle.ca.gov/Publications/Download/874
Cat does not have a limit, but there could be an argument for using 100ppm as a limit for most, regarding Fe.
196ppm Fe seems high and worthy of an OCI.
Are you tracking the Fe as a "rate"? Perhaps sample every 100 hours, and then track the trends.
download this: https://www2.calrecycle.ca.gov/Publications/Download/874
Cat does not have a limit, but there could be an argument for using 100ppm as a limit for most, regarding Fe.
196ppm Fe seems high and worthy of an OCI.
Are you tracking the Fe as a "rate"? Perhaps sample every 100 hours, and then track the trends.
I've never understood an iron condemnation limit. It cannot be that the iron showing up in the analysis has "built up" to a dangerous level in the oil since the particles that give an indication on an ICP analysis are generally too small to cause damage. Even if some larger ones show up there's no way the majority are that large.
So what is it then? Is it that the oil is considered "worn out" when enough iron shows up and it needs to be changed to prevent ongoing, accelerated wear due to something other than the iron itself in the oil?
I used to run oil analysis in college for our automotive engineering and fluid power departments. Never did we run the analysis to tell them when to condemn oil due to iron (or any other wear metal for that matter), it was always to help predict impending equipment damage. But even then we needed to do an acid digestion because the large damage inducing particles would elude our analysis if we didn't digest the sample. We'd see numbers in the neighborhood of 1000 ppm on some really bad samples.
So what is it then? Is it that the oil is considered "worn out" when enough iron shows up and it needs to be changed to prevent ongoing, accelerated wear due to something other than the iron itself in the oil?
I used to run oil analysis in college for our automotive engineering and fluid power departments. Never did we run the analysis to tell them when to condemn oil due to iron (or any other wear metal for that matter), it was always to help predict impending equipment damage. But even then we needed to do an acid digestion because the large damage inducing particles would elude our analysis if we didn't digest the sample. We'd see numbers in the neighborhood of 1000 ppm on some really bad samples.
I'm not sure why, either, but the limits are out there for various applications or set by others, sometimes. Doug Hillary was using something like a 150 ppm limit in his regime.
I assume this is a piece of machinery and not a truck engine, but that's a lot of iron for the number of hours in operation. When I had C15 truck engines, an OCI of 25-30k miles would amount to 450-600 hours and iron was typically around 1 ppm/thousand miles.
I would use the local Cat dealer for analysis and see what they say or at least take what you have to the shop foreman and ask for their thoughts. They'll be very knowledgeable about UOAs (specifically for Cat engines) and should be able to address your concerns. It may be just something loose in the overhead. I doubt it's anything serious but could turn into such if left unchecked.
Even if it were the very first 500 hours from new, I wouldn't expect anything close to that level of iron. If you're not going to get it looked at, switch to a 15W-40 and see what happens. Any other metals running high?
I would use the local Cat dealer for analysis and see what they say or at least take what you have to the shop foreman and ask for their thoughts. They'll be very knowledgeable about UOAs (specifically for Cat engines) and should be able to address your concerns. It may be just something loose in the overhead. I doubt it's anything serious but could turn into such if left unchecked.
Even if it were the very first 500 hours from new, I wouldn't expect anything close to that level of iron. If you're not going to get it looked at, switch to a 15W-40 and see what happens. Any other metals running high?
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Originally Posted by dustyroads
I would use the local Cat dealer for analysis and see what they say....
This is probably the best idea so far.
I would use the local Cat dealer for analysis and see what they say....
This is probably the best idea so far.
dnewton3
Staff member
I think the reason there are condemnation limits is because of the implication of particles larger than what a UOA would see. Understandably, the UOA is only going to see up to (about) 5um in size. But that does not mean there are not particles of Fe or Cu or whatever that are not larger. So the limits set by those OEMs, by my inference, is an implication of the unseen, based on what is seen. While we cannot know how much exists above 5um, it's at least reasonable to believe it quasi-proportional at least to the point where the FF filter would be highly efficient.
Switch to a diesel oil with proper viscosity for that engine and I bet it drops. 5W30 just should not be used in a piece of heavy equipment or a HD diesel engine. Its fine for your VW commuter or little Eco Diesel but not this... I don't care what brand it is.
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We run 15w40 in the big CAT's …
We run 15w40 in the big CAT's …
Originally Posted by racin4ds
Switch to a diesel oil with proper viscosity for that engine and I bet it drops. 5W30 just should not be used in a piece of heavy equipment or a HD diesel engine.
The ACEA, API, Caterpillar, Cummins, DAF, Scania, MB, Mann, Volvo, DD, Deutz, Mack, Renault, and others would disagree with that. The lube I'm running in my G37 is Caterpillar ECF-2/ECF-3, as are most of its competitors.
Switch to a diesel oil with proper viscosity for that engine and I bet it drops. 5W30 just should not be used in a piece of heavy equipment or a HD diesel engine.
The ACEA, API, Caterpillar, Cummins, DAF, Scania, MB, Mann, Volvo, DD, Deutz, Mack, Renault, and others would disagree with that. The lube I'm running in my G37 is Caterpillar ECF-2/ECF-3, as are most of its competitors.
What was the soot % and 100c viscosity at 500 and 1000 hours?
Every engine manufacturer has condemnation limits for wear metals. For my Detroit, and direct from the latest iteration of their lube manual, it is 200 ppm on Fe, and 30 ppm for Pb, Cu, Al, etc. My Detroit 60 just went over 1 million miles. Still all original. As of last sample, Fe was around 16, Pb was at around 6, Al was at 1, Tin 1, etc. So it seems I needn't get worried anytime soon.
Originally Posted by racin4ds
5W30 just should not be used in a piece of heavy equipment or a HD diesel engine. Its fine for your VW commuter or little Eco Diesel but not this... I don't care what brand it is.
Even though 10w30 is the factory fill and recommendation by all the major HD engine manufacturers? Yep, Volvo / Mack, Navistar, Paccar, Detroit, Cummins, etc are all factory filling their 12L - 15L engines with 10w30 and recommending a syn blend 10w30 or full syn 5w30 HDEO CK-4. Some pretty impressive results from what i have seen. I know several fleets and individuals that are using 30w oils as per the OEM recommendation in their heavy diesels and it is working fine.
5W30 just should not be used in a piece of heavy equipment or a HD diesel engine. Its fine for your VW commuter or little Eco Diesel but not this... I don't care what brand it is.
Even though 10w30 is the factory fill and recommendation by all the major HD engine manufacturers? Yep, Volvo / Mack, Navistar, Paccar, Detroit, Cummins, etc are all factory filling their 12L - 15L engines with 10w30 and recommending a syn blend 10w30 or full syn 5w30 HDEO CK-4. Some pretty impressive results from what i have seen. I know several fleets and individuals that are using 30w oils as per the OEM recommendation in their heavy diesels and it is working fine.
dnewton3
Staff member
Originally Posted by TiredTrucker
Originally Posted by racin4ds
5W30 just should not be used in a piece of heavy equipment or a HD diesel engine. Its fine for your VW commuter or little Eco Diesel but not this... I don't care what brand it is.
Even though 10w30 is the factory fill and recommendation by all the major HD engine manufacturers? Yep, Volvo / Mack, Navistar, Paccar, Detroit, Cummins, etc are all factory filling their 12L - 15L engines with 10w30 and recommending a syn blend 10w30 or full syn 5w30 HDEO CK-4. Some pretty impressive results from what i have seen. I know several fleets and individuals that are using 30w oils as per the OEM recommendation in their heavy diesels and it is working fine.
Yes, there are some high-quality products from well known companies that specifically market 5w-30 HDEOs for heavy-trucking and off-road ops. They would not do that if there was a concern of engine damage where they would be at risk for warranty claims. Castrol, Schaeffers, Amsoil and others all market 5w-30 HDEOs directly aimed at commercial applications.
https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/AC9000A90EA852B780257A91004742B8/$File/BPXE-8YWF9U.pdf
https://www.schaefferoil.com/documents/315-723-td.pdf
https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g3467.pdf
Originally Posted by racin4ds
5W30 just should not be used in a piece of heavy equipment or a HD diesel engine. Its fine for your VW commuter or little Eco Diesel but not this... I don't care what brand it is.
Even though 10w30 is the factory fill and recommendation by all the major HD engine manufacturers? Yep, Volvo / Mack, Navistar, Paccar, Detroit, Cummins, etc are all factory filling their 12L - 15L engines with 10w30 and recommending a syn blend 10w30 or full syn 5w30 HDEO CK-4. Some pretty impressive results from what i have seen. I know several fleets and individuals that are using 30w oils as per the OEM recommendation in their heavy diesels and it is working fine.
Yes, there are some high-quality products from well known companies that specifically market 5w-30 HDEOs for heavy-trucking and off-road ops. They would not do that if there was a concern of engine damage where they would be at risk for warranty claims. Castrol, Schaeffers, Amsoil and others all market 5w-30 HDEOs directly aimed at commercial applications.
https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/AC9000A90EA852B780257A91004742B8/$File/BPXE-8YWF9U.pdf
https://www.schaefferoil.com/documents/315-723-td.pdf
https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g3467.pdf
I mistakenly read that as he was using regular signature series 5W30, not the true HDEO 5W30, my mistake. I'm a proponent of 10W30 in HD diesels, seen how well it works first hand in my own. But if using a 30WT I don't like the high spread weights with tons of VM's like the 0W or 5W oils... I'd not use anything less than a 10W or 15W personally. Diesels just beat the oil up too much and I still don't think these wide range mutli-grades can take the beating without extreme shear.
Of course, if someone were using ILSAC type 5w-30 in a diesel calling for an API C spec or ACEA E spec, I'd have a stroke.
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