Oil in hot temps

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot


Temps hit 140 F? Not on this planet. At least not yet. However, if you have some data, let's see it.
smile.gif




Originally Posted by Skippy722


Hottest AIR temperature recorded on Earth is 134F in 1913 in Death Valley. Ground temperatures can exceed that, but that isn't relevant to engine cooling.


Gentlemen: Yes Google does say the highest recorded temperature is 134.1°F. However there are plenty of places on the planet where there IS no recording of temperatures; simply assuming that temperatures there couldn't possible exceed 134.1°F would be a fallacy.


To back up my previous post, I submit the following references to posts by member Falcon_LS:


https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/4434905/Searchpage/1/Main/271941/Words/%2Bkuwait/Search/true/re-14-odyessy-70k-which-grade-5w30-vs-20w50#Post4434905

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...-5w30-for-gen-lll-coyote-5-0#Post5168619


Also this one, and I apologize, where I said 130-140, his post said 125°F+, and I also made the mistake of saying he had an oil temp sensor, which was wrong. However the data he puts out doesn't lie. Temps increase under load and heat:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...oil-in-this-heat-a-good-idea#Post4805424


Enjoy the reading!
 
Originally Posted by JLTD
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot


Temps hit 140 F? Not on this planet. At least not yet. However, if you have some data, let's see it.
smile.gif




Originally Posted by Skippy722


Hottest AIR temperature recorded on Earth is 134F in 1913 in Death Valley. Ground temperatures can exceed that, but that isn't relevant to engine cooling.


Gentlemen: Yes Google does say the highest recorded temperature is 134.1°F. However there are plenty of places on the planet where there IS no recording of temperatures; simply assuming that temperatures there couldn't possible exceed 134.1°F would be a fallacy.


To back up my previous post, I submit the following references to posts by member Falcon_LS:


https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/4434905/Searchpage/1/Main/271941/Words/%2Bkuwait/Search/true/re-14-odyessy-70k-which-grade-5w30-vs-20w50#Post4434905

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...-5w30-for-gen-lll-coyote-5-0#Post5168619


Also this one, and I apologize, where I said 130-140, his post said 125°F+, and I also made the mistake of saying he had an oil temp sensor, which was wrong. However the data he puts out doesn't lie. Temps increase under load and heat:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...oil-in-this-heat-a-good-idea#Post4805424


Enjoy the reading!

FalconLS is the resident authority on driving and maintaining a vehicle in extreme heat. I'd follow his advice.
 
Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Originally Posted by JLTD
Originally Posted by mtlineman
Moving to Yuma Az with temps in the 110 range. I have a 2012 4 cyl Camry and a 2019 Honda Odyssey van with a V6. Do I need to go any higher weight oils then the factory specs for them in this area ?


Originally Posted by JoelB
Nope. Engineers design cars to be driven all over the country.


True...however we do have a member that lives in the Middle East, where temps hit 130-140°F (~57°C)! AND he has an oil temp monitor on his vehicle. I couldn't find the thread, but he charted his oil temps in his usual traffic, and a 20 thinned to an unsafe level....so he uses no thinner than a 40 grade oil.

Also, Toyota does specify a thicker oil may be required for lots of highway, mountainous, towing, etc, all which raise the temperature of the oil.

So in OP's place, based on this information, I'd run at least a 30 in AZ.


Temps hit 140 F? Not on this planet. At least not yet. However, if you have some data, let's see it.
smile.gif



Hottest AIR temperature recorded on Earth is 134F in 1913 in Death Valley. Ground temperatures can exceed that, but that isn't relevant to engine cooling.


Be careful with this, please. Citing isolated searing localized temperatures that may happen, will soon turn into people thinking 20-weight oils and the overall car as a system will be insufficient to handle other super hot places, such as Texas (Eagle Pass) and Arizona (Phoenix) where temperatures 115, 121, are not all that uncommon..

Aside: User manuals used to give drivers a choice on the oil they run. A good question for this thread is if they still do or not.
 
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Most modern engines operate at about 210 F regardless of the where the car is. 100 F is a nice day compared to the engine temp. The car doesn't care what the ambient temperature is. It it's hot it keeps the thermostat(s) open and runs the electric fan(s) at the highest speed. If it overheats in a traffic jam it has cooling problems that no oil will solve. The oil itself needs high rpm to overheat. If oil temps are above 220 F you would be correct to chose a higher weight. Do what makes you feel good.
smile.gif



Exactly! My Honda Pilot and Lexus RX 350 coolant temps are the same once operating temp is reached whether it's 5F and 95F outside. Like exactly the same. If I drive differently there are short transient changes in coolant temp but no more than 10F. This is, as is the case with most BITOG posts, a silly and useless discussion. If the auto manufacture specs 0W-20 in your climate region then stop trying to reinvent the wheel and go with it.

How many of you obsess about this nonsense just to trade or sell your car at 60K miles where you could've run olive oil and the engine would've survived? There is only one conclusion anyone with a clue can come to after reading BITOG....the oil really doesn't matter as long as there is enough it in the engine and you change it at a reasonable interval. It just doesn't matter....and that makes 9 out of 10 BITOG posts a waste of everyone's time.
 
Last edited:
The old Audi 200 had a very large oil cooler, and a chart about oil viscosity by temperature. There was very little temperature difference in the oil from summer to winter when engaging in similar driving patterns. Getting the oil above 90 C was just about impossible.
 
Originally Posted by talest


Be careful with this, please. Citing isolated searing localized temperatures that may happen, will soon turn into people thinking 20-weight oils and the overall car as a system will be insufficient to handle other super hot places, such as Texas (Eagle Pass) and Arizona (Phoenix) where temperatures 115, 121, are not all that uncommon..

Aside: User manuals used to give drivers a choice on the oil they run. A good question for this thread is if they still do or not.




Most manufacturers test autos here in Arizona just to prove everything hold up well in extreme heat and abuse.
 
As someone who has been operating vehicles in an extremely hot and dusty climate for many years, I will chime in with an example based on experiences of my own. I will focus on the Mustang GT Fastback Performance Package (Coyote 5.0L V8), as this is the newest vehicle in my fleet with 16,000 km (10,000 miles) on the clock.

Going against the OE recommendation of 5W-20, factory fill was dumped at the 1,500 km (938 mile) mark and replaced with Motorcraft 5W-50 and an FL-500S filter. This oil change was a complete mess - as soon as you started unscrewing the drain plug, oil started seeping out like water and the gushed out all over the place as soon as the plug came off. Until the vehicle is officially out of warranty, I will continue to have all maintenance done by the same dealership. Although I have had close contacts of my own at the dealer for many years, I prefer they regularly see the car for services and checkups.

Fuel wise, the vehicle runs Euro V rated 95 RON. As the local refineries are only capable of producing Euro II rated gasoline with an octane rating ranging from 91-95, Euro V is imported from the UK and is refined by Kuwait Petroleum International's refineries there.

At the 5,000 km (3,000 mile) mark, the oil and filter was changed along with the air and cabin filters. I still used Motorcraft 5W-50, but switched to a Fram Ultra XG10575 at this point. Although the dealership recommends oil changes every 10,000 km (6,250 miles) with Motorcraft 5W-20, I do a simple drain/refill at the 5,000 km (3,000 mile) mark along with new air and cabin filters. At the 10,000 km (6,250 mile) mark, the oil filter is replaced along with the oil and the usual air/cabin filters. Even with 5,000 km (3,000 miles) on them, the air and cabin filters are full of extremely fine sand particles. You feel a difference in the air conditioning as soon as the cabin filter is changed out.

At the 5,000 km (3,000 mile) mark with 5W-50, it'll still drain out watery, albeit more viscous, just not as watery and free flowing as 5W-20. With all that being said, I have heard other Mustang owners complain to service advisors about their engines ticking like a type writer and you can really hear it, almost like a rod knock. One of them I spoke to said he was running 5W-20 with ~18,000 km (11,250 miles). I, touch wood, have not had this problem.

Depending on the time of day, ambient temperatures this time of year range between the 120 °F - 130 °F. You're welcome to check out these articles:

Temperatures to hit Kuwait 68 degrees C. this summer (05/28/2019)

Kuwait and Saudi Arabia record highest temperature on earth (06/12/2019)

Kuwait City Makes Claim of 63 Degrees Celsius (06/14/2019)

Kuwait witness 62 degrees Celsius temperature, Trees and bushes catch fire (08/08/2017)

At the end of the work day, 16:30 hrs, the ambient temperature is between 120 °F - 122 °F. Coolant temperature on a "cold" engine that has been sitting for 9 hours will be in the 118 °F - 125 °F range. If allowed to idle, the engine will hit operating temperature within 5 minutes of firing up. If you wait for it to drop off high idle and drive off, you will hit operating temperature in about 2 minutes.

ATF, on the other hand, will be within the 125 °F - 130 °F range, and with a thermostat in the air-to-oil cooler, it'll hit about 190 °F within 5 minutes of driving. The 212 °F - 215+ °F range isn't far fetched and once in this range, the transmission may bang into gear when shifting from neutral to drive at the lights, for instance.

The other thing that doesn't get as much attention and really takes a hit in high temperatures is the electrical system. You'll get a voltage reading of 13.9 V at start up on a summer day (14.3V in the cooler months), but turn the AC and as soon as the cooling fan kicks in at full blast, you're looking at a voltage reading of 12.0 V at the battery post. Often I find myself turning off the AC, even in a one year old car, to help with engine cooling with the AC clutch disengaged. Not fun, even with tinted windows, but it's not long before coolant temperature exceeds 218 °F. If you really get on it at those temperatures, the engine will experiencing preignition and that is definitely not something I want on an engine this new, so I will baby it. The load on the electrical system and high engine temperatures get worse if you happen to hit traffic, particularly after sunset.

ATF and Differential fluid was also replaced at the 15,000 km (9,375 miles) with Motorcraft 75W-140 over the recommended 75W-80. The factory stuff was super thin in comparison.

This isn't a Mustang thing either, it's exactly the same with my Grand Marquis that has an electrical fan. The Envoy (although electroviscous), Explorer and Pajero have the added advantage of an engine-driven clutched fan and that still seems the way forward in hot climates.

Tires are another issue. The factory Pirelli P Zero (255/40ZR19) tires had to be replaced at the 12,000 km (7,500 miles). I run Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric 3 (245/45R18) on the Grand Marquis and generally summer performance tires do not tend to fare very well in the heat, even if you drive sensibly.

In a nutshell, I haven't done any oil analysis to be fair so there is no "hard evidence" to back anything up. But I personally refrain from running thinner oils in this climate, even if the engine was "designed around it". There are no CAFE, fuel economy or emissions requirements in this part of the world and that's one less thing to worry about. My engine is not ticking like other folks' engines are, and yes I change oil much more frequently, but it works for me and I'm going to keep doing it. YMMV.
 
It's just as hot here and I don't get anything like pre ignition nor a need for anything other than a 20 grade. By the same token if I'm at WOT it's for only a few minutes and once the gas is laid off the oil temperature drops down to 215F-225F after a high in the mid 230's after a 5-10 WOT run.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If a 20 weight oil can't handle 100F plus temperatures outside, what will it do when those temps reach 200F?

Oh wait.
 
Originally Posted by PimTac
If a 20 weight oil can't handle 100F plus temperatures outside, what will it do when those temps reach 200F?

Oh wait.



Your making sense but some have to disagree because of the "know better" factor. When the minimum Viscosity is maintained we are good to go.
 
The 100s of threads about HTHS, MOFT and how those change with oil viscosity and oil temperature, and how some manufactures specify thicker oils for hotter climates, higher engine demands (high speed driving, towing, etc) ... yet that's all pretty much ignored because engines still seem to "run fine" without failure in 120 F degree weather with xW-20 oil.
 
Use whatever viscosity lets you sleep well at night.

I run M1HM 10W-30 A3/B3 rated oil and its worked fine in my Toyota 3.5 2GR-FE. You can check my UOA and see results in my posts.

I run 5W-20 in my Corolla. Have run 5w-30 in it before as well. Engine is just fine. I would feel fine running the 10W-30 in the Corolla too.

New Camry's spec 0W-16. I'm sure there are plenty of normies running 0W-16 in AZ without catastrophic failure.
 
Last edited:
Hottest AIR temperature recorded on Earth is 134F in 1913 in Death Valley. Ground temperatures can exceed that, but that isn't relevant to engine cooling.[/quote]

Be careful with this, please. Citing isolated searing localized temperatures that may happen, will soon turn into people thinking 20-weight oils and the overall car as a system will be insufficient to handle other super hot places, such as Texas (Eagle Pass) and Arizona (Phoenix) where temperatures 115, 121, are not all that uncommon..

Aside: User manuals used to give drivers a choice on the oil they run. A good question for this thread is if they still do or not.

[/quote]

Hyundai / KIA owners manuals give you a choice based on local outside air temperature.
 
Just living in Arizona doesn't require anything special. Unless you're constantly towing or hauling up mountains the ambient temp alone means little to the engine.

Why is it people think all those PhD engineers never thought of people living in the southwest USA?lol!

Whatever's on the cap is what 99.9% of drivers are using without issue.

Just change it regularly and you'll be fine.
 
Originally Posted by HiPowerShooter

Why is it people think all those PhD engineers never thought of people living in the southwest USA?lol!

Whatever's on the cap is what 99.9% of drivers are using without issue.

At least for me the discussion isn't about outsmarting the engine builders (I have never deviated from the OM specs) but more about which of the 3 approved grades should I use for higher ambients? Is a 5/20 suitable year round if I were seeing 100f+ temps or would it be prudent to bump it up to the mfg approved 10w30??

This of course is all a theoretical for me as I live in the NW but should I.......‚
 
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by HiPowerShooter

Why is it people think all those PhD engineers never thought of people living in the southwest USA?lol!

Whatever's on the cap is what 99.9% of drivers are using without issue.

At least for me the discussion isn't about outsmarting the engine builders (I have never deviated from the OM specs) but more about which of the 3 approved grades should I use for higher ambients? Is a 5/20 suitable year round if I were seeing 100f+ temps or would it be prudent to bump it up to the mfg approved 10w30??

This of course is all a theoretical for me as I live in the NW but should I.......‚


Does your vehicle have an engine oil cooler? If so, run whatever you want. If not, I'd bump up.
 
Originally Posted by HiPowerShooter
Why is it people think all those PhD engineers never thought of people living in the southwest USA?lol!

Most engineers don't have their PhDs and the beancounters had a great deal of input into what goes on an oil fill cap or in a manual. If you ask any of those engineers if a 15w-40 is suitable for use in a Camry in an Arizona summer, he's going to tell you sure, go ahead, fill your boots. They didn't write the blurb about only using 0w-20 with catastrophic warnings about diverging.

Necessary? No. The notion that only one viscosity is acceptable for all conditions is silly. One viscosity certainly can work for all conditions, if one so chooses. In fact, it's pretty necessary for me. If I can't use the oil year round, I'm probably going to pass on it. Just because one viscosity will work for all conditions doesn't mean that one viscosity only must be chosen.
 
Originally Posted by Garak
Originally Posted by HiPowerShooter
Why is it people think all those PhD engineers never thought of people living in the southwest USA?lol!

Most engineers don't have their PhDs and the beancounters had a great deal of input into what goes on an oil fill cap or in a manual. If you ask any of those engineers if a 15w-40 is suitable for use in a Camry in an Arizona summer, he's going to tell you sure, go ahead, fill your boots. They didn't write the blurb about only using 0w-20 with catastrophic warnings about diverging.

Necessary? No. The notion that only one viscosity is acceptable for all conditions is silly. One viscosity certainly can work for all conditions, if one so chooses. In fact, it's pretty necessary for me. If I can't use the oil year round, I'm probably going to pass on it. Just because one viscosity will work for all conditions doesn't mean that one viscosity only must be chosen.



From experience the oil operation temps at 115F compared to 24F is around 15F hotter at 115F. Driving style affects oil temperature a lot more than ambient temperature.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top