Honda Application: Kendall VersaTrans LV vs. Idemitsu Type H Plus

[The Critic]

Vehicle: 2012 Honda Odyssey Touring.

At 79K, the vehicle was overdue for a transmission service and due to budget reasons, Kendall VersaTrans LV was installed. The transmission was drained (3.75 quarts) and an additional 8 quarts was exchanged using the cooler lines. Total fluid used was 12 quarts. After the service, the transmission software was updated to the latest calibration and road tested. Shift quality was ok, but engagement was noticeably harsher than DW1.

At 94K, it was observed that the fluid was quite dark. The customer approved another transmission service. This time, 3 drain and refills were performed using Idemitsu Type H Plus. 3.7-3.9 qt each time, total of 11.5 quarts. After the "flush" with a Idemitsu, the shift quality was identical to other Honda 6AT's running DW-1. You can only hear the engine rpm changes, you cannot feel the shifts.

This is just one data point. I recognize that the Idemitsu Type H Plus uses a very different additive package than DW1, but from what I have observed, it shifts identically to the OE fluid. I cannot say the same for the VersaTrans LV product or other multi-vehicle fluids I have tried.

 

[parshisa]

I really am curious to how much has been saved by using idemitsu. 10$?

 

[JustN89]

I think the generally conclusion was that it might work in the short term, but what's unknown is what, if any, damage might occur during extended use of the Type H.

 

[slacktide_bitog]

Kendall supplies Honda dealer oil, but not their ATF

Castrol's synthetic ATF works well in Hondas

And for an Ody, no fluid will guarantee a long life for that transmission

Anyway, how long do you plan on keeping the Type-H in there?

 

[Oro_O]

Thanks for a detailed post on this. I'd like to ask follow on questions if you are knowledgeable about Honda transmissions.

I recently "commissioned into the fleet" a 2003 Civic for a (soon to be) 16 year old driver. 180k and it shifts fine, drives very well, but I'm looking to see how to best maintain the AT as I know the reputation; I'm more a manual transmission and Lexus/Toyota or GM AT person, so I'm leary. I've had Honda motorcycles (many) as old as 1978 but their auto trans cars scare me.

My main choice to replace it was going to be Idemitsu H and this is re-enforcing. Iv'e been using the Idemitsu T-IV (TLS?) equivalent in the Lexus with excellent results. I was going to d/f (~3qts) the AT with Idemitsu H+, run a few k and repeat. Then do again every 30k. The fluid does not look bad and has clearly been serviced since new; it is not 180k on the factory fill, but transmission exact service is unknown.

Follow on question: The other AT's I've been servicing a long time, and all running great (310k, 190k, 120k, 160k) are Aisin (toyota) and GM. All benefit from a little Lubegard Red - I use it mainly for the ester oil content to condition seals, clean, and reduce temps. Works. I would like to do the same for this Honda AT, but am leary - I know the ester oil will do know damage, but I wonder about the anti-wear and friction modifier content. Is there a safe ester additive for Honda transmissions?

PS - where are you getting the gallons of Id. H+, and reasonably priced? I need to buy some this month and get on this.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted by parshisa
I really am curious to how much has been saved by using idemitsu. 10$?

About 40%.

Originally Posted by JustN89
I think the generally conclusion was that it might work in the short term, but what's unknown is what, if any, damage might occur during extended use of the Type H.

True, but it cannot be worse than running Maxlife.

Originally Posted by slacktide_bitog
Kendall supplies Honda dealer oil, but not their ATF

Castrol's synthetic ATF works well in Hondas

And for an Ody, no fluid will guarantee a long life for that transmission

Anyway, how long do you plan on keeping the Type-H in there?

Most of the multi-vehicle ATF's seem to shift noticeably different than the Honda fluid. The Odyssey 6AT's are usually problem free once it gets updated software and regular fluid changes. I think the goal is to service every 30K.

 

[Revving2Redline]

Originally Posted by The Critic
Originally Posted by parshisa
I really am curious to how much has been saved by using idemitsu. 10$?

About 40%.

Originally Posted by JustN89
I think the generally conclusion was that it might work in the short term, but what's unknown is what, if any, damage might occur during extended use of the Type H.

True, but it cannot be worse than running Maxlife.

Originally Posted by slacktide_bitog
Kendall supplies Honda dealer oil, but not their ATF

Castrol's synthetic ATF works well in Hondas

And for an Ody, no fluid will guarantee a long life for that transmission

Anyway, how long do you plan on keeping the Type-H in there?

Most of the multi-vehicle ATF's seem to shift noticeably different than the Honda fluid. The Odyssey 6AT's are usually problem free once it gets updated software and regular fluid changes. I think the goal is to service every 30K.


Seems Castrol is the go to ATF for Honda. Their Transmax series is top notch.Much better quality and value than Valvoline too.

 

[ctechbob]

Originally Posted by Or
Thanks for a detailed post on this. I'd like to ask follow on questions if you are knowledgeable about Honda transmissions.

I recently "commissioned into the fleet" a 2003 Civic for a (soon to be) 16 year old driver. 180k and it shifts fine, drives very well, but I'm looking to see how to best maintain the AT as I know the reputation; I'm more a manual transmission and Lexus/Toyota or GM AT person, so I'm leary. I've had Honda motorcycles (many) as old as 1978 but their auto trans cars scare me.

My main choice to replace it was going to be Idemitsu H and this is re-enforcing. Iv'e been using the Idemitsu T-IV (TLS?) equivalent in the Lexus with excellent results. I was going to d/f (~3qts) the AT with Idemitsu H+, run a few k and repeat. Then do again every 30k. The fluid does not look bad and has clearly been serviced since new; it is not 180k on the factory fill, but transmission exact service is unknown.

Follow on question: The other AT's I've been servicing a long time, and all running great (310k, 190k, 120k, 160k) are Aisin (toyota) and GM. All benefit from a little Lubegard Red - I use it mainly for the ester oil content to condition seals, clean, and reduce temps. Works. I would like to do the same for this Honda AT, but am leary - I know the ester oil will do know damage, but I wonder about the anti-wear and friction modifier content. Is there a safe ester additive for Honda transmissions?

PS - where are you getting the gallons of Id. H+, and reasonably priced? I need to buy some this month and get on this.



Amazon has it for $31.59 shipped with Prime.

I too am having good results out of it in 2 of 3 of our Honda's. I use Maxlife in the 2000. All of them get 1oz/qt Lubegard Red.

I will recount the story of a local Honda Trans guy who is pretty highly regarded for doing good rebuilds. His opinion is that fresh fluid is more important than it being Z1 or DW1 and as such, uses a 'multi-use' fluid in his rebuilds. I wish I could remember what it was or had taken a picture of the barrel when he did the trans in the 2000, but it was none of the ones we commonly discuss here.

 

[parshisa]

the only place i've seen idemitsu was amazon and the cost is probably 1$/qt cheaper than DW1. But you likely got it on sale or something. makes sense

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted by parshisa
the only place i've seen idemitsu was amazon and the cost is probably 1$/qt cheaper than DW1. But you likely got it on sale or something. makes sense
Since you mention it, when Idemitsu H+ was discussed before here, a price comparison there was based on Worldpac pricing. As noted there that pricing is not available to the average consumer reading here, like you (I assume) and me. Only verified business accounts. So the Amazon pricing noted looks like the most readily available comparison. H&A shows DW1 retail $8.25/qt with sale ~$6/qt, a little less if bought by case. Of course that not including H&A prohibitive (to me) shipping cost. Likely negotiate with a dealer some price in between retail and H&A price.

That said, moot point for me as I've had excellent results two Hondas with significant anecdotal miles using MaxLife (WM pricing) with single d&fs 25-30k mi. intervals. Nothing else needed.

 

[MParr]

Kendall Versa Trans LV is very close to Motorcraft Mercon LV. Comparing the data sheets on each, they are virtually the same. Of course, Philips 66 will not comment due to proprietary reasons.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Our TSX pulls better with the Idemitsu fluid than the DW-1. Quality stuff.

 

[Y_K]

Never used any lube additives in ATF. Works.

As for the pricing, it is hard to beat WorldPac, one can get Motul there for peanuts. But you should keep in mind that an average shop proprietor has multi-thousand dollar overhead every month.

 

[Sayjac]

No problem whatsoever with WorldPac pricing and/or that only verified business accounts eligible. Main point, making sure those reading this forum understand if or when referenced, average joe can't participate. So apples to apples pricing for the latter should be considered.

 

[slacktide_bitog]

Originally Posted by Sayjac
No problem whatsoever with WorldPac pricing and/or that only verified business accounts eligible. Main point, making sure those reading this forum understand if or when referenced, average joe can't participate. So apples to apples pricing for the latter should be considered.

 

[Hall]

Originally Posted by parshisa
the only place i've seen idemitsu was amazon and the cost is probably 1$/qt cheaper than DW1. But you likely got it on sale or something. makes sense
Autozones around here have Idemitsu ATF, including their Honda variant, on the shelves.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Originally Posted by hallstevenson
Originally Posted by parshisa
the only place i've seen idemitsu was amazon and the cost is probably 1$/qt cheaper than DW1. But you likely got it on sale or something. makes sense
Autozones around here have Idemitsu ATF, including their Honda variant, on the shelves.

I generally let Amazon do the walking, but good to know...
Thanks.

 

[bulwnkl]

As I recall, that 6-speed is the new-design step-shift automatic from Honda, correct? That's as opposed to the A/T design they'd used for the previous, what 30+ years? DW-1's formulation is oriented toward the A/T design Honda used for ages, which has no planetary gearsets and no 'paper' clutches. The design is very much like an automated manual transmission. Honda's newest transmission design is not at all like that. They now use a 'normal' design.

If my recollection about the tranny in question here is correct, then the whole other thread about DW-1 ATF formulation is impertinent here.

And FWIW, there _is_ a difference in shift feel between DW-1 and these non-clone alternatives when you're using them in the typical Honda tranny design. You may not notice it at first, or more commonly you may write it off to 'new' fluid, but it's there and it's real.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted by Or
Thanks for a detailed post on this. I'd like to ask follow on questions if you are knowledgeable about Honda transmissions.

I recently "commissioned into the fleet" a 2003 Civic for a (soon to be) 16 year old driver. 180k and it shifts fine, drives very well, but I'm looking to see how to best maintain the AT as I know the reputation; I'm more a manual transmission and Lexus/Toyota or GM AT person, so I'm leary. I've had Honda motorcycles (many) as old as 1978 but their auto trans cars scare me.

My main choice to replace it was going to be Idemitsu H and this is re-enforcing. Iv'e been using the Idemitsu T-IV (TLS?) equivalent in the Lexus with excellent results. I was going to d/f (~3qts) the AT with Idemitsu H+, run a few k and repeat. Then do again every 30k. The fluid does not look bad and has clearly been serviced since new; it is not 180k on the factory fill, but transmission exact service is unknown.

Follow on question: The other AT's I've been servicing a long time, and all running great (310k, 190k, 120k, 160k) are Aisin (toyota) and GM. All benefit from a little Lubegard Red - I use it mainly for the ester oil content to condition seals, clean, and reduce temps. Works. I would like to do the same for this Honda AT, but am leary - I know the ester oil will do know damage, but I wonder about the anti-wear and friction modifier content. Is there a safe ester additive for Honda transmissions?

PS - where are you getting the gallons of Id. H+, and reasonably priced? I need to buy some this month and get on this.


Not sure on the additives - I don't use them. I purchased the 5-qt jugs from WP for about $23. Amazon also sells the jugs.

Originally Posted by bulwnkl
As I recall, that 6-speed is the new-design step-shift automatic from Honda, correct? That's as opposed to the A/T design they'd used for the previous, what 30+ years? DW-1's formulation is oriented toward the A/T design Honda used for ages, which has no planetary gearsets and no 'paper' clutches. The design is very much like an automated manual transmission. Honda's newest transmission design is not at all like that. They now use a 'normal' design.

If my recollection about the tranny in question here is correct, then the whole other thread about DW-1 ATF formulation is impertinent here.

And FWIW, there _is_ a difference in shift feel between DW-1 and these non-clone alternatives when you're using them in the typical Honda tranny design. You may not notice it at first, or more commonly you may write it off to 'new' fluid, but it's there and it's real.

The Honda 10-spd auto is their first "normal" auto, not this one.

 

[parshisa]

So, are you saying that newer honda transmissions are shifting better with non-oem fluids such as max-life and idemitsu? Is there a knowledge on those fluids holding up better?