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Re: Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl [Re: Nacademus] #5170317 07/25/19 06:38 AM
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zeng Offline
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Super UDT2 [email protected] of 37 cSt is low'ish and IMHO, is not a suitable replacement for Permatran 821xl of much higher [email protected] of 57.6 cSt.

Last edited by zeng; 07/25/19 06:39 AM.
Re: Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl [Re: zeng] #5170374 07/25/19 08:27 AM
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Nacademus Offline OP
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Originally Posted by zeng
Super UDT2 [email protected] of 37 cSt is low'ish and IMHO, is not a suitable replacement for Permatran 821xl of much higher [email protected] of 57.6 cSt.



Hi Zeng,

So the SUDT2 would in turn be less viscous at or above operating temp than Permatran 821xl, right? Many people across quite a few forums remark about how mechanically similar the Massey Ferguson GC Series subcompact tractors are to the Kubota subcompacts. I've read that even a few parts interchange. I haven't checked, myself so this is all hearsay.

If the viscosity is lower, could that grenade the pump? I wasn't sure if viscosity relates directly with lubricity or not, but you may be onto something. Pump tolerances could be at play.

Last edited by Nacademus; 07/25/19 08:28 AM.
Re: Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl [Re: Nacademus] #5170399 07/25/19 09:00 AM
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Kubota replied to me but it wasn't particularly helpful. They gave me the SDS for the oil-not the certifications I was hoping to get.

Looks like I will be traveling a few hours to get the Permatran 821xl...

Re: Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl [Re: Nacademus] #5170402 07/25/19 09:08 AM
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You probably won't be operating the tractor much with the fluid at 40C anyways, unless you like to start it up and run it for 5 mins at a time often?
In my non expert opinion I think the KRL 20hr shear test is something good to look at with a HST transmission and the conventional duratran tractor fluid with lower a VI holds its 100C viscosity better than the synthetics or synthetic blends in Petro-Canada products in that test. What the fluid is like in the jug isn't as important as what's like at 100hrs in the tractor IMO. It seems only Petro Canada actually publishes a shear test result though.
I do warm up my tractor and run it for an hour plus and fairly hard usually so cold flow isn't as important to me as how the fluids handle higher temps and loads. I think you will be fine with any name brand conventional tractor fluid and I figured duratran was the best I could get here, but just stay away from the store or discount brands.


07 Focus ZXW, 5spd manual, 245km M1 5W30
18 Outback 2.5 CVT 35km 0W20
Re: Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl [Re: IndyIan] #5170538 07/25/19 12:17 PM
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doitmyself Offline
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Originally Posted by IndyIan
You probably won't be operating the tractor much with the fluid at 40C anyways, unless you like to start it up and run it for 5 mins at a time often?
In my non expert opinion I think the KRL 20hr shear test is something good to look at with a HST transmission and the conventional duratran tractor fluid with lower a VI holds its 100C viscosity better than the synthetics or synthetic blends in Petro-Canada products in that test. What the fluid is like in the jug isn't as important as what's like at 100hrs in the tra ctor IMO. It seems only Petro Canada actually publishes a shear test result though.
I do warm up my tractor and run it for an hour plus and fairly hard usually so cold flow isn't as important to me as how the fluids handle higher temps and loads. I think you will be fine with any name brand conventional tractor fluid and I figured duratran was the best I could get here, but just stay away from the store or discount brands.


LOL, I'm sure Nacademus is now regretting ever asking this question. OCD sucks!

Indylan, ironic that you mentioned VI and shearing. The Chevron product I mentioned above has a VI of 204, making me wonder if that is from a great base stock or from added VI Improvers that can shear? shrug

Regarding your "fluids handle higher temps and loads." , that is what I also thought about my JD 4115 mentioned above. The Hygard temp. charts suggest that regular HY Gard is best for my conditions. The tractor came from the factory with low vis and contact with JD corporate recommended I stay with the low vis as the "lesser of two evils" (thin vs. thick).

None of this makes sense and Nacademus is left hanging with lots of differing opinions. shrug shrug

Finally, I called a very large local AGCO dealer to get a spec. sheet of the newer semi-synthetic Permatran. He said he could not get it and it didn't matter because they are all the same.....New Holland, JD 303, ..... duh Yea, I miss the days of being like that.

Re: Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl [Re: Nacademus] #5170613 07/25/19 01:42 PM
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https://lubricants.petro-canada.com/en-ca/brand/duratran
For the duratran line, the syn blend is a winter only tractor fluid so be careful just assuming its going to be better than their regular fluid. The duratran full synthetic is for year round, but still falls short of the regular duratran in the shearing tests, flash point. The regular duratran still has pretty decent cold flow, better than the Chevron THF1000 I was using before and I try not to start my tractor below -10C which is a pretty reasonable temp for any conventional fluids.


07 Focus ZXW, 5spd manual, 245km M1 5W30
18 Outback 2.5 CVT 35km 0W20
Re: Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl [Re: Nacademus] #5171174 07/26/19 08:54 AM
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zeng Offline
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Originally Posted by Nacademus
Originally Posted by zeng
Super UDT2 [email protected] of 37 cSt is low'ish and IMHO, is not a suitable replacement for Permatran 821xl of much higher [email protected] of 57.6 cSt.



Hi Zeng,

So the SUDT2 would in turn be less viscous at or above operating temp than Permatran 821xl, right? Many people across quite a few forums remark about how mechanically similar the Massey Ferguson GC Series subcompact tractors are to the Kubota subcompacts. I've read that even a few parts interchange. I haven't checked, myself so this is all hearsay.

If the viscosity is lower, could that grenade the pump? I wasn't sure if viscosity relates directly with lubricity or not, but you may be onto something. Pump tolerances could be at play.

Yes, SUDT2 is less viscous and thus would aggravate the 'hot' and 'groaning' phenomena in relation to 821xl.
Typically inadequate MOFT oil film thickness could grenade a pump, hence it may be wise avoiding too low a viscosity for components protection.
LE power fluid 7500 suggested by Langanobob above may be considered for its specs though I'd personally replaced a 5W30 utto with a thicker GL5 gear oil with good results.

Last edited by zeng; 07/26/19 08:55 AM.
Re: Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl [Re: Nacademus] #5171331 07/26/19 12:38 PM
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Thank you for the input, everyone.

It seems -this time- I will bite the bullet and travel a good ways to get the oil specifically named in my manual. I will snip the filter boxes to keep the labels, my receipt for the supplies, log my service date and hours, and keep them in my maintenance catalog for the tractor. I do this with basically everything I own.

For the time being, I suppose this will give me a little peace of mind that if something does happen to my equipment-regardless of origin, I won't be on any kind of hook for running oil that I can't easily prove the certification guarantee on and any warranty work should be approved smoothly. I have the 5 year powertrain warranty and just got the tractor September 28th of 2018.

I would like to revisit this topic, though. It annoys me to no end when manufacturers either bottle their own named maintenance items and sell them at premiums, or try to push an item they have dominion over as the best solution when there may actually be better options out there. My Cobalt SS/TC had a big Mobil 1 logo (read, "advertisement") on the oil cap. I used Mobil 1 in my vehicles anyways, but that stuff always annoyed the [censored] out of me.

Re: Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl [Re: Nacademus] #5172031 07/27/19 10:35 AM
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Quote
It annoys me to no end when manufacturers either bottle their own named maintenance items and sell them at premiums, or try to push an item they have dominion over as the best solution when there may actually be better options out there.


It IS a very thin fence line to balance oneself on. I have personally witnessed some equipment failures due to "gross" negligence of wrong parts/supplies used: Years ago a cavitation ruined diesel engine because they used "car" coolant in it. A large excavator at a local CAT dealer getting an engine teardown due to a poor fitting aftermarket fuel filter. I've had a few aftermarket air filters seem to be "not right" regarding fitment. That my previous Kubota $35 hydraulic filter weighed about 3 times more than the $8 Wix replacement made me stick with the OEM choice.

Then, you go to a dealer and they are using some generic hytran fluid in their own shop. Makes you scratch your head. Respected member Jim Allen posted an analyses on a generic Tractor Supply Co. type tranny fluid that had low additive levels.

You made the same decision I would have. However, with my car for the first time ever I elected to use a multi-use transmission fluid based on experiences learned here vs. spending $20/qt. for OEM fluid. Go figure. Time will tell.......LOL.

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