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Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl #5169588 07/24/19 08:54 AM
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Nacademus Offline OP
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Hi everyone,

I have a 2018 Massey Ferguson GC1720 subcompact tractor ready for the 50 hour maintenance.

I would like to run a full synthetic for my machine wherever I can. I am going to put full synthetic Rotella T6 15w-40 in the engine, and use a Mobil 1 filter, there.

The manual calls for Permatran 821xl hydraulic fluid in the transmission and front differential.

Unfortunately, I am not close to the dealer I purchased it from. Ordering a 5 gallon pail of 821xl would be expensive to ship.

I am near numerous John Deere, Cub Cadet, Kubota, etc dealership, just no Massey Ferguson dealers.

May I use Kubota Super UDT2 in my tractor in place of the Permatran 821xl?

I cannot find a listing of the certifications for the Kubota fluid. The publications I do find illustrate that it is full synthetic-but no dealership parts center I call knows for sure. They think it's a blend.


I am uploading the Permatran 821xl publication screenshots I am referencing. I also added the Kubota publication screenshots for Super UDT2. It is not as encompassing with certs but lists the oil properties.

Here are links to where my screenshots originated:

http://www.rudolphbrosinc.com/PartsGuides/AGCOPartsLubricantsGuide.pdf

https://www.kubotausa.com/parts/kubota-parts-products/lubricants

perm1.jpgperm2.jpgkub.jpg
Re: Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl [Re: Nacademus] #5169603 07/24/19 09:13 AM
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CT8 Offline
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The only benefit you will find running syn oils is the below freezing starting. Which ever oil you choose the quality is paramount.


2015 F150 2.7
2018 F350 6.2
Re: Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl [Re: Nacademus] #5169613 07/24/19 09:35 AM
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doitmyself Offline
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I don't have your answer. The Permatran 821xl has viscosity that is almost identical to the John Deere Hygard J-20C. The Kubota UDT2 viscosity is lower, in-between the JD Hygard and JD Low Viscosity Hygard.

In making your decision, I would investigate if the Massey will perform o.k. with a lower viscosity hydrostatic fluid (UDT2), especially in the hot summer months. Maybe the guys at tractorbynet.com will be able to assist you more.

Let us know what you learn.

Re: Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl [Re: Nacademus] #5169621 07/24/19 09:49 AM
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Nacademus Offline OP
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I understand.

I assumed that a lower viscosity oil could potentially run smoother, provide less cavitation (seemingly evident by the groaning noise that has increased in noticeability over the last 50h since the day I've owned my tractor), and maybe generate less heat.

I am unable to find this same question on Tractorbynet. I see more allusion to Permatran III and not the newly formulated Permatran 821xl. And most reference to the Kubota Super UDT2 resides within the Kubota forum trees.

It's just been really hard for me to research. I might just go the extra 2 hours and get the oil it calls for-but if that is the same as the delivery oil, I do not look forward to the heat and noise that developed. I couldn't even uncouple my backhoe while hot without gloves-burned my hand. Now, I know it's always going to be warm/hot to the touch and you shouldn't expect to decouple freshy, hot hydraulic QCs like that. But I think this level of heat was more that it SHOULD have been. I wouldn't say that I am unfamiliar with hydraulic equipment

Last edited by Nacademus; 07/24/19 09:49 AM.
Re: Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl [Re: Nacademus] #5169624 07/24/19 09:52 AM
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Nacademus Offline OP
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I live in Northern Ohio. Even though this past year we've had rather mild winter, we have had a few days of below 0F. Naturally, the day I needed to move the snow off my property was one of these days.

I did not notice anything exciting about the cold weather operation. Maybe a little bit of jittering in the controls while operating bone cold.

Re: Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl [Re: Nacademus] #5169683 07/24/19 10:56 AM
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Langanobob Offline
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I also have a GC1720 and I hang out at tractorbynet. The various subcompact tractor owners there are using Schaeffers tractor hydraulic fluid, Kubota SUDT2, Amsoil tractor hydraulic fluid in addition to Permatran 821XL. I’m using Lubrication Engineers Power Fluid 7500 which is not a synthetic and works well. Like CT8 said, quality of the product is important, not so much whether it’s synthetic or not. The LE price and shipping has gone up out of my comfort zone so I’ll probably use something different next time.

The factory installed hydraulic fluid was badly discolored when I changed it at 30 hours. The LE7500 still looks new after 70 hours. I do a lot of snowblowing and heavy loader work and the fluid gets a workout.

Only consideration I would have is to confirm that whatever oil you choose meets the Permatran spec, just in the unlikely case you have a warranty problem in the hydraulic system.

Re: Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl [Re: Nacademus] #5169699 07/24/19 11:13 AM
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doitmyself Offline
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AGCO sure doesn't make things easy. Your AGCO product guide link above is from 2006. They came out with a Permatran 821XL Plus formula that is discontinued. They now have a semi synthetic formula I have yet to find the specs for: https://www.facebook.com/bakerandso...etic-transmission-and-/1792973900978204/ ...At least this should be better than the Group II non synthetic you show above.

Find the specs. for this newer semi synthetic and it might lead you to determine the Kubota UDT2 is o.k.. Or, at least you should feel better if you decide to go out of your way to buy the Permatran - it's now a better fluid.


Re: Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl [Re: Nacademus] #5169742 07/24/19 11:59 AM
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doitmyself Offline
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To me, the fluid that hits all the sweet spots is Chevron THF: https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=294507&docFormat=PDF

It has better low temperature flow (not as good as UDT2) but it retains the high temperature viscosity of the regular THF's . None of these fluids we are discussing are inexpensive.

Re: Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl [Re: Nacademus] #5169804 07/24/19 01:30 PM
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I reached out to Messick's Equipment, a Kubota dealership with a lot of presence on YouTube. I asked their thoughts on using Super UDT2 in my GC and they told me it would be fine.

I know they're not on the hook should something happen. I wouldn't expect anything to, but who knows? Maybe my MF is special and will decide to eat itself on this oil for whatever reason.

I appreciate the comments.

I don't think I can source the Chevron THF locally. Cheapest delivered price is $250/5gal.

I can't seem to find a more recent Permatran 821xl publication for some reason-but if its BETTER now than its shown, maybe I'll just suck it up and go get it, along with the hydro filter I need.

Finding a Kubota Super UDT2 cert list would make me a lot happier if I elect to stay close to home. Its literally 2 miles for the UDT2 vs 150 round trip to get the Permatran. Rats.

Re: Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl [Re: Nacademus] #5169813 07/24/19 01:52 PM
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Rand Offline
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How about using deere hygard its around $70 for 5 gallons.
gallons are $15
its a quality product

"Hy-Gard oil can be used in most applications calling for 10W-30 or 5W-30 engine oil for transmission and hydraulic oils. Note: Hy-Gard should be used in all applications calling for JDM J20C"

Tons of Deere dealers around, or shipped from amazon 5 gal for $76 including shipping.


2019 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk 2.0T
2020 Hyundai Elantra "Value Edition"
Re: Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl [Re: Nacademus] #5169865 07/24/19 03:04 PM
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doitmyself Offline
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I think he wants to go with a synthetic product with better flow rate/cold temp. performance.

Here's the only spec sheet that shows some certs, but it is from 2010: https://kubotacustomercare.custhelp.com/ci/fattach/get/52073/0/filename/Kubota+Super+UDT2+Fluid+PI+Sheet+%281%29.pdf

FYI, my workplace JD 4115 compact hydrostatic tractor runs the Low Vis Hygard with no problems summer/winter. It's viscosity is 7.1/33 (100degC/40deg.C). Their temp. chart differs, but I contacted JD tech. and they recommended the Low Vis, what was installed at the factory.


Lots of similar discussions all over the net. Its very similar to the discussions here about tranny fluids. The manufacturers marketing suggests their fluid is the very best and ONLY product to use in their machine. Some people follow that and some don't.

Re: Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl [Re: Nacademus] #5169882 07/24/19 03:32 PM
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The break in period is brutal on the oil because there is much higher friction from the machined surfaces as well the wear particles in the oil no matter what the component is.


2015 F150 2.7
2018 F350 6.2
Re: Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl [Re: doitmyself] #5170129 07/24/19 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by doitmyself
I think he wants to go with a synthetic product with better flow rate/cold temp. performance.

Here's the only spec sheet that shows some certs, but it is from 2010: https://kubotacustomercare.custhelp.com/ci/fattach/get/52073/0/filename/Kubota+Super+UDT2+Fluid+PI+Sheet+%281%29.pdf

FYI, my workplace JD 4115 compact hydrostatic tractor runs the Low Vis Hygard with no problems summer/winter. It's viscosity is 7.1/33 (100degC/40deg.C). Their temp. chart differs, but I contacted JD tech. and they recommended the Low Vis, what was installed at the factory.


Lots of similar discussions all over the net. Its very similar to the discussions here about tranny fluids. The manufacturers marketing suggests their fluid is the very best and ONLY product to use in their machine. Some people follow that and some don't.



I appreciate linking me to that document. You can see in the text that its recommended where Permatran III is used-I can imagine this could also stand up for the 821xl if I can find a newer document. I might reach out to Kubota directly about it. I've got a little time to kill smile

Re: Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl [Re: CT8] #5170131 07/24/19 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by CT8
The break in period is brutal on the oil because there is much higher friction from the machined surfaces as well the wear particles in the oil no matter what the component is.



I definitely agree with that. I wonder if because of this, oil shear is happening causing my trans to groan and moan more than since day one...

Re: Kubota Super UTD2 subbed for Permatran 821xl [Re: Nacademus] #5170144 07/24/19 08:31 PM
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Nacademus Offline OP
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[Linked Image]


Here is a picture of the previously referenced document that doitmyself shared. Dated 2010.


I have emailed Kubota Customer Service to ask for a new list of certifications and shared the document for reference. Maybe I'm thinking about this too much.


I will share their response. Maybe it could help someone else, someday.

Last edited by Nacademus; 07/24/19 08:32 PM.
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