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Re: 6.4 hemi with 5w30 oil? [Re: Dragon44] #5153484 07/07/19 03:13 AM
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demarpaint Offline
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I'm beginning to think the Mobil 1 ESP offerings might be a good choice as well in a 30 grade. That's if you're not concerned about the possibility of a warranty issue in the rare event should something go wrong.


God Bless Our Troops

Re: 6.4 hemi with 5w30 oil? [Re: Dragon44] #5153489 07/07/19 03:42 AM
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In the interest of full disclosure:
the 5.7L Hemi in my Charger spent the first 90K miles of its (albeit rough) life on a diet of whatever the dealership used to change the oil. So I am assuming Mopar 5W-20 conventional/semi-synthetic. Then it ate the camshaft at 90K, got another one, and went another 10K miles before I got the car. I've used all manner of weights, brands, and flavors in the meantime (~50K miles), and the engine definitely chattered more with some than others. But my latest choice, M1 HM 10w-30 has it running the quietest it's ever run with me, and so far I haven't emptied the CC out once yet on this OCI (would have probably collected an ounce or 2 by now with the 5w-xx synthetics in past).

It's hardly evidence, and if it is, I don't know for what, but take that for what it's worth - my Hemi seems to love the HM flavor of Mobil 1 in 10w-30, and I am anything but easy on her...

If there's any take-away from this, I think it should be that you can do everything by the book when it comes to the oil, and you could still get a chewed up camshaft with these Hemis, so while the owner's manual is good to follow, I wouldn't treat it as gospel on subjects in which it has clearly shown to be hardly better than chance on preventing specific problems.


2012 Charger Pursuit aka "The Bacon Hauler"
- 5.7L + NAG1 (A5) + 2.65 (215mm)
Re: 6.4 hemi with 5w30 oil? [Re: The_Nuke] #5153593 07/07/19 07:25 AM
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Triple_Se7en Offline
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Originally Posted by The_Nuke
In the interest of full disclosure:
the 5.7L Hemi in my Charger spent the first 90K miles of its (albeit rough) life on a diet of whatever the dealership used to change the oil. So I am assuming Mopar 5W-20 conventional/semi-synthetic. Then it ate the camshaft at 90K, got another one, and went another 10K miles before I got the car. I've used all manner of weights, brands, and flavors in the meantime (~50K miles), and the engine definitely chattered more with some than others. But my latest choice, M1 HM 10w-30 has it running the quietest it's ever run with me, and so far I haven't emptied the CC out once yet on this OCI (would have probably collected an ounce or 2 by now with the 5w-xx synthetics in past).

It's hardly evidence, and if it is, I don't know for what, but take that for what it's worth - my Hemi seems to love the HM flavor of Mobil 1 in 10w-30, and I am anything but easy on her...

If there's any take-away from this, I think it should be that you can do everything by the book when it comes to the oil, and you could still get a chewed up camshaft with these Hemis, so while the owner's manual is good to follow, I wouldn't treat it as gospel on subjects in which it has clearly shown to be hardly better than chance on preventing specific problems.

For 90K, you never asked the dealer what oil is being used, in a vehicle you paid roughly 40K for?
If there's any take-away from this, you didn;t do everything by the book and clatter resulted, probably much sooner.


19' Hyundai Santa Fe 2.4 GDI - Valv Syn 5w30 / Napa Proselect filter / 6oz Liqui-Moly
20' Kia Soul X-Line 2.0 Multi-port / Factory-fill oil / filter
04' Colorado 3.5 / Castrol Edge 0W40 / K&N filter
Re: 6.4 hemi with 5w30 oil? [Re: Triple_Se7en] #5153611 07/07/19 07:54 AM
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The_Nuke Offline
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Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en

For 90K, you never asked the dealer what oil is being used, in a vehicle you paid roughly 40K for?
If there's any take-away from this, you didn;t do everything by the book and clatter resulted, probably much sooner.


From mile 0 until mile 109K, the car was a city police squad car for the Rowlett police department here outside of Dallas. I got the car from someone that purchased it at an auction where Rowlett was selling all its retired city vehicles. I looked up the vehicle's service history through CarFax and have been able to piece together a lot of what has been done to the car and when by using that report, but the oil change entries from the dealerships never went into detail about what kind of oil was being used.

From the outset the car rode like it had been ridden hard and put up wet, and it ran like it too. Over the last year, I have nursed it back into civilized life by fixing and/or replacing what I can and when I can. The book? I use it for torque specs, not for oil choices on this car.

I tried the oil specified in the book a couple of times, and each OCI the car could get to where it sounded like a typewriter was being electrocuted under the hood when I would start it up on cold mornings or after sitting long periods of time (1 full day).

So I stopped using that oil., and tried others. Some were more agreeable for both of us (myself as well as the car), some were less. The current choice is both of our favorite so far.


2012 Charger Pursuit aka "The Bacon Hauler"
- 5.7L + NAG1 (A5) + 2.65 (215mm)
Re: 6.4 hemi with 5w30 oil? [Re: Dragon44] #5154680 07/08/19 11:53 AM
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You probably seen one of my posts on the Ram forum where I ran MAG 1 5W-30 with no issue. I would still have no problem running a 5W-30 in the 6.4 but the only caveat would be to run a synthetic and to run something with a good moly count. While rare, the 6.4's like their 5.7 Hemi cousins have been known to have a lifter roller bearing fail and swipe a cam lobe flat.


2020 Jeep Gladiator Rubicon 3.6L (Dealer Bulk 0W-20)
2017 Jeep Renegade Latitude 2.4L (Idemitsu 0W-20)
2013 Volkswagen Jetta 2.5L (Dealer Bulk 5W-40)

Re: 6.4 hemi with 5w30 oil? [Re: Dragon44] #5168387 07/22/19 06:08 PM
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ddown Offline
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Remember before the fiat acquisition Mobil 1 was the recommended oil for SRT/6.4 engines in the factory manuals.

Re: 6.4 hemi with 5w30 oil? [Re: Dragon44] #5168440 07/22/19 07:45 PM
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I run the penz 0w-40 SRT oil. did a few early break in oil changes with valvoline 5w-30, had in my stash, but dumped every 1000 miles or so.

But would stick with 0w-40, Castrol meets the spec and can be had at wally world for price of any 30w.


1986 Daytona TurboZ 2.2
2000 Durango 5.9
2002 WJ 4.7
2005 PT GT 2.4T 5spd
2006 PT GT 2.4T 5spd
2006 PT 2.4
2015 Overland Hemi
2017 SRT Challenger
2018 Sahara 3.6
2020 Rubicon 3.6
Mopar or No Car!
Re: 6.4 hemi with 5w30 oil? [Re: Dragon44] #5168629 07/23/19 04:21 AM
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If you can afford a Ram with a 6.4, then you can afford to maintain it with the proper 0W-40 oil.


2018 RAM Bighorn 5.7
2008 Toyota Sienna 3.5
Re: 6.4 hemi with 5w30 oil? [Re: Dragon44] #5168809 07/23/19 09:37 AM
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OVERKILL Offline
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The big difference between your GF-5 PCMO 5w-30 and the 0w-40 offerings isn't the 100C visc, which on some of them, will be close, it's the HTHS visc, which, on the 0w-40's and other Euro lubes, is 3.5cP+.

Other differences (excluding the non-Euro SRT 0w-40) include higher levels of anti-wear additives in the 0w-40, and significantly more robust testing protocols like Porsche A40, MB 229.5* ...etc.

The "original" SRT 0w-40 was just plain-Jane M1 0w-40, the Euro lube. When FIAT acquired Chrysler, the relationship with Mobil was severed and SOPUS supplanted into that role, who then conjured up an SRT-specific 0w-40 with more pedestrian levels of AW additives. It also has a higher Noack volatility at around 13%, which wouldn't pass the Euro testing protocols.

All that said, I'm not sure why the truck 6.4L even calls for the 0w-40 shrug it's a far more similar engine to the truck 5.7L than it is to the SRT 392, which is more power dense.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2020 Grand Cherokee SRT - Ravenol SSL 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Re: 6.4 hemi with 5w30 oil? [Re: OVERKILL] #5168831 07/23/19 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by OVERKILL
.....................

All that said, I'm not sure why the truck 6.4L even calls for the 0w-40 shrug it's a far more similar engine to the truck 5.7L than it is to the SRT 392, which is more power dense.



That is the mystery, Out of the RAM Chief Design Engineer's mouth on a Q&A video after the late 2014 (2015 MY) launch of the RAM 6.4, said all reliability testing was done with 5W-30 conventional with no issues. That video has now disappeared from the RAM Truck Youtube channel but was out there for a couple of years before that.

My speculation is there was some marketing decision that overrode the engineers at launch to spec the 0W-40 for the RAM 6.4 to not add confusion for the SRT 6.4 engine vehicle owners to think 5W-30 was OK for them.
.


2020 Jeep Gladiator Rubicon 3.6L (Dealer Bulk 0W-20)
2017 Jeep Renegade Latitude 2.4L (Idemitsu 0W-20)
2013 Volkswagen Jetta 2.5L (Dealer Bulk 5W-40)

Re: 6.4 hemi with 5w30 oil? [Re: Dragon44] #5168885 07/23/19 11:47 AM
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burla Offline
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FCA values detergency, clean oil, and super high moly for the hemi, stay in grade not so much. I'm sure you could make an argument that maybe they should have added stay in grade specs as part of their lubrication strategy, but the 0w40 srt PUP oils tend to have a cSt a little higher then oils like m1 even esp or fs. So yeah maybe they could have made the srt oil better if they would have considered stay in grade more, but those stay in grade oils with their fancy specs also could be better as far as detergency and moly levels as well. I haven't really looked at a list that has includes all considerations, I know the boutiques tend to have the entire enchilida as in all 4 catagories covered, but maybe there are some otc oils that meet everything? Moly level is clearly key with the lifter issues, but so is detergency keeping those roller bearings clean. When you consider what plagues the hemi, you need to consider the entire package imo.

Re: 6.4 hemi with 5w30 oil? [Re: burla] #5168929 07/23/19 12:40 PM
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OVERKILL Offline
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Originally Posted by burla
FCA values detergency, clean oil, and super high moly for the hemi, stay in grade not so much. I'm sure you could make an argument that maybe they should have added stay in grade specs as part of their lubrication strategy, but the 0w40 srt PUP oils tend to have a cSt a little higher then oils like m1 even esp or fs. So yeah maybe they could have made the srt oil better if they would have considered stay in grade more, but those stay in grade oils with their fancy specs also could be better as far as detergency and moly levels as well. I haven't really looked at a list that has includes all considerations, I know the boutiques tend to have the entire enchilida as in all 4 catagories covered, but maybe there are some otc oils that meet everything? Moly level is clearly key with the lifter issues, but so is detergency keeping those roller bearings clean. When you consider what plagues the hemi, you need to consider the entire package imo.


Food for thought, but if Moly levels were key to keeping the lifter issue at bay, those using the SRT lube wouldn't be having lifter issues wink

Given that the Euro specs also include requirements for cleanliness over extended drains, I don't think that's a concern. M1 0w-40 is actually one of the very few lubes that has been advertised as cleaning, rather than just keeping things clean, FWIW.

Further to the thing about moly levels, I firmly believe this isn't the magic panacea that it is made out to be. I'm running a lube with no moly in it in my 6.4L and it has the Chrysler approval. There are a ton of oils on the market that are approved by Chrysler that have much lower levels of moly, which, if it was indeed such a critical component, would be included as part of the spec. Furthermore, those using oils with little or no moly (like myself) should be experiencing lifter issues. I'm not, my 6.4L is as quiet as a HEMI can be, with zero tick, on this lubricant.

I'd put keeping the needle bearings clean far, FAR above moly in terms of importance, as there are other additives that can be as effective, or moreso, than moly, but there's no substitute for cleanliness.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2020 Grand Cherokee SRT - Ravenol SSL 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Re: 6.4 hemi with 5w30 oil? [Re: Dragon44] #5168961 07/23/19 01:13 PM
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burla Offline
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Magic or not, fca built their oil with a boat load of moly, I figure they have a reason to do so. At one point we had 6 lifter fails reported in a row that all ended up being non moly oils. Coincidence, maybe. But, what is the downside of using a high moly oil? None. So it's kind of a no brainer, "possible" upside and no downside, sign me up. At a minimum use the 75ppm moly oils, but hemi guys should at least consider the 200+ moly club, using an oil w/o moly in a hemi makes zero sense.

Re: 6.4 hemi with 5w30 oil? [Re: burla] #5169030 07/23/19 02:41 PM
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The_Nuke Offline
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Originally Posted by burla
Magic or not, fca built their oil with a boat load of moly, I figure they have a reason to do so. At one point we had 6 lifter fails reported in a row that all ended up being non moly oils. Coincidence, maybe. But, what is the downside of using a high moly oil? None. So it's kind of a no brainer, "possible" upside and no downside, sign me up. At a minimum use the 75ppm moly oils, but hemi guys should at least consider the 200+ moly club, using an oil w/o moly in a hemi makes zero sense.


Given that the owner's manual says to use a multi-viscosity engine oil that is API SN and Xw-20 (or 0w-40 for the 6.4L), and a vehicle owner adheres to that recommendation by choosing an oil which is SN and 5w-30 (or 0w-40 for 6.4L), yet the oil they choose is a non-moly oil, what then?

They did everything they knew to do, but you are telling them their decision on what oil to use makes no sense. It would seem to make perfect sense on the surface of things, since they followed the owner's manual.

I figure the owner's manual doesn't mention moly for a reason...


2012 Charger Pursuit aka "The Bacon Hauler"
- 5.7L + NAG1 (A5) + 2.65 (215mm)
Re: 6.4 hemi with 5w30 oil? [Re: Dragon44] #5169047 07/23/19 03:01 PM
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burla Offline
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Thin man, pretty thin.

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