Diesel dead for everyday CUV/Cars?

[wag123]

Originally Posted by 4WD
Never saw the final bill for that disaster … but had to be astronomical … and lasting effects
The latest estimate has VW dieselgate losses at over $25 billion, and counting. That doesn't even include the loss in sales that the negative publicity has caused or the monetary losses that VW dealers have suffered.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted by edyvw
I said DPF technology is stout. DEF is part of SCR, which I stated there are issues around! DPF was utilized long before SCR made its way into personal vehicles. My BMW X5 35d would do regeneration in 10 seconds.
My mistake on the typo (DPF versus DEF). Diesel Particulate Filters are wear items with most light trucks requiring replacement after 100K (post warranty), they are incredibly expensive and overall, I would challenge anyone to show where a passenger car/light truck modern diesel costs less initially and to operate than a comparable gasoline engine.10 seconds to do a full regen? BMW is chasing the wrong rainbow then--they should be licensing that technology to every other diesel OEM. I have not seen or read of any modern diesel performing a regen in 10 seconds. I stand by my thoughts, unless the design of emissions systems change, diesels in passenger cars will disappear in two decades or less--especially with the increase of power and fuel economy via turbocharging in many gasoline platforms.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by edyvw
I said DPF technology is stout. DEF is part of SCR, which I stated there are issues around! DPF was utilized long before SCR made its way into personal vehicles. My BMW X5 35d would do regeneration in 10 seconds.
My mistake on the typo (DPF versus DEF). Diesel Particulate Filters are wear items with most light trucks requiring replacement after 100K (post warranty), they are incredibly expensive and overall, I would challenge anyone to show where a passenger car/light truck modern diesel costs less initially and to operate than a comparable gasoline engine.10 seconds to do a full regen? BMW is chasing the wrong rainbow then--they should be licensing that technology to every other diesel OEM. I have not seen or read of any modern diesel performing a regen in 10 seconds. I stand by my thoughts, unless the design of emissions systems change, diesels in passenger cars will disappear in two decades or less--especially with the increase of power and fuel economy via turbocharging in many gasoline platforms.

DPF on BMW M57 engine will last well over 200k (I think BMW is projecting 250k). And yes, then customer should replace it. As for technology, BMW is far ahead anyone in EU when it comes to personal vehicle diesels and considering what they are managing to do with inline 6 engines, I think they know what they doing. As for technology, their engines are in Toyota's vehicles and were utilized a lot by GM Europe.
However, I agree with you when it comes to SCR. DPF? So, so, I personally could live with that. But SCR issues? In my ownership of X5 I never had a single issue with vehicle, except that SCR stuff. And that plagues other cars too, as serial numbers of sensors, heating units for DEF tanks etc. are exactly same for BMW, VW, MB, Ford, GM, Toyota etc. Though this was 1st gen. SCR system. We are now in 3rd generation, and things could be bit better, but there are just too many moving parts and compared to current 6cyl or 4cyl turbo gas engines, it does not make sense.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by 4WD
Never saw the final bill for that disaster … but had to be astronomical … and lasting effects
The latest estimate has VW dieselgate losses at over $25 billion, and counting. That doesn't even include the loss in sales that the negative publicity has caused or the monetary losses that VW dealers have suffered.


I was one of those who thought highly of VW for trying to think of their customers instead of cowering to the sky is falling bunny hugger crowd and EPA who wants the air coming out the tailpipe to be cleaner than the air that went in the intake. I would have thought it would have caused VW sales to increase. Shows how the media can really manipulate the public. All VW did was tune down the EGR usage a little some other aspects so the motors were more efficient. So what there was a slight up tick in NOx and such in some conditions. Still cleaner by a long stretch compared to pre-emission diesels. And with 2.5 million commercial vehicles running around, each putting out as much exhaust in one year that would take 5 VW cars running 100,000 miles per year each to generate, the variance from the EPA standard would never have made a bit of difference in the overall picture. A lot of paranoia for nothing.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by TiredTrucker
Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by 4WD
Never saw the final bill for that disaster … but had to be astronomical … and lasting effects
The latest estimate has VW dieselgate losses at over $25 billion, and counting. That doesn't even include the loss in sales that the negative publicity has caused or the monetary losses that VW dealers have suffered.


I was one of those who thought highly of VW for trying to think of their customers instead of cowering to the sky is falling bunny hugger crowd and EPA who wants the air coming out the tailpipe to be cleaner than the air that went in the intake. I would have thought it would have caused VW sales to increase. Shows how the media can really manipulate the public. All VW did was tune down the EGR usage a little some other aspects so the motors were more efficient. So what there was a slight up tick in NOx and such in some conditions. Still cleaner by a long stretch compared to pre-emission diesels. And with 2.5 million commercial vehicles running around, each putting out as much exhaust in one year that would take 5 VW cars running 100,000 miles per year each to generate, the variance from the EPA standard would never have made a bit of difference in the overall picture. A lot of paranoia for nothing.



Please. There diesel vehicles were non-compliant during 99.9% of miles driven. Basically any time the steering wheel was turned and/or throttle changed the vehicle was non-compliant.

The EGR was turned down a lot not just a little, and IIRC it didn't even meet the emissions regs which had, at the time, just been replaced.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by edyvw
I said DPF technology is stout. DEF is part of SCR, which I stated there are issues around! DPF was utilized long before SCR made its way into personal vehicles. My BMW X5 35d would do regeneration in 10 seconds.
My mistake on the typo (DPF versus DEF). Diesel Particulate Filters are wear items with most light trucks requiring replacement after 100K (post warranty), they are incredibly expensive and overall, I would challenge anyone to show where a passenger car/light truck modern diesel costs less initially and to operate than a comparable gasoline engine.10 seconds to do a full regen? BMW is chasing the wrong rainbow then--they should be licensing that technology to every other diesel OEM. I have not seen or read of any modern diesel performing a regen in 10 seconds. I stand by my thoughts, unless the design of emissions systems change, diesels in passenger cars will disappear in two decades or less--especially with the increase of power and fuel economy via turbocharging in many gasoline platforms.

DPF on BMW M57 engine will last well over 200k (I think BMW is projecting 250k). And yes, then customer should replace it. As for technology, BMW is far ahead anyone in EU when it comes to personal vehicle diesels and considering what they are managing to do with inline 6 engines, I think they know what they doing. As for technology, their engines are in Toyota's vehicles and were utilized a lot by GM Europe.
However, I agree with you when it comes to SCR. DPF? So, so, I personally could live with that. But SCR issues? In my ownership of X5 I never had a single issue with vehicle, except that SCR stuff. And that plagues other cars too, as serial numbers of sensors, heating units for DEF tanks etc. are exactly same for BMW, VW, MB, Ford, GM, Toyota etc. Though this was 1st gen. SCR system. We are now in 3rd generation, and things could be bit better, but there are just too many moving parts and compared to current 6cyl or 4cyl turbo gas engines, it does not make sense.



+1

IIRC a small company in Canada was making upgraded SCR components.

SCR component failure was the only negative I experienced with my 335d. Sometimes I find myself missing that car.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by TiredTrucker
Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by 4WD
Never saw the final bill for that disaster … but had to be astronomical … and lasting effects
The latest estimate has VW dieselgate losses at over $25 billion, and counting. That doesn't even include the loss in sales that the negative publicity has caused or the monetary losses that VW dealers have suffered.


I was one of those who thought highly of VW for trying to think of their customers instead of cowering to the sky is falling bunny hugger crowd and EPA who wants the air coming out the tailpipe to be cleaner than the air that went in the intake. I would have thought it would have caused VW sales to increase. Shows how the media can really manipulate the public. All VW did was tune down the EGR usage a little some other aspects so the motors were more efficient. So what there was a slight up tick in NOx and such in some conditions. Still cleaner by a long stretch compared to pre-emission diesels. And with 2.5 million commercial vehicles running around, each putting out as much exhaust in one year that would take 5 VW cars running 100,000 miles per year each to generate, the variance from the EPA standard would never have made a bit of difference in the overall picture. A lot of paranoia for nothing.

I feel the same. VW tried, kudos to them.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by TiredTrucker
Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by 4WD
Never saw the final bill for that disaster … but had to be astronomical … and lasting effects
The latest estimate has VW dieselgate losses at over $25 billion, and counting. That doesn't even include the loss in sales that the negative publicity has caused or the monetary losses that VW dealers have suffered.


I was one of those who thought highly of VW for trying to think of their customers instead of cowering to the sky is falling bunny hugger crowd and EPA who wants the air coming out the tailpipe to be cleaner than the air that went in the intake. I would have thought it would have caused VW sales to increase. Shows how the media can really manipulate the public. All VW did was tune down the EGR usage a little some other aspects so the motors were more efficient. So what there was a slight up tick in NOx and such in some conditions. Still cleaner by a long stretch compared to pre-emission diesels. And with 2.5 million commercial vehicles running around, each putting out as much exhaust in one year that would take 5 VW cars running 100,000 miles per year each to generate, the variance from the EPA standard would never have made a bit of difference in the overall picture. A lot of paranoia for nothing.

I feel the same. VW tried, kudos to them.


ya, Kudos to VW for overcharging customer for the costs of equipment and software which were not functional. Oh and while we're at it, kudos to the taxpayer for subsidizing all this with the "clean diesel" tax credit of $500 or whatever amount it was.

 

[Garak]

The real issue is that they all do it and VW was just one of the first to be caught. If the bulk of your regulations are focused on defining specific tests and ensuring that vehicles pass said tests, you should expect that OEMs will design vehicles to pass those tests.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted by 4WD
Never saw the final bill for that disaster … but had to be astronomical … and lasting effects


VW will be suffering fallout for about a decade. I think they had to sign a consent decree with the government saying they would champion development of electric cars.
I think this is why they say they're going to have a complete electric lineup by 2025.
And they'll be bankrupt by 2028.

 

[pezzy669]

I took advantage of the VW dieselgate post-fix and picked up two low mileage (65k on my '12 and 48k on my other half '11) Sportwagen TDI's that were both certified pre-owned (2 yr/unlimited bumper to bumper) and have 5 year up to 120k dieselgate warranty that pretty much covers everything powertrain related EXCEPT the DSG gearbox. Got them both for a screaming bargain and don't really have to worry about any repairs. Yes VW in an effort to recoup some $$$$ really lifted CPO restrictions for the TDI vehicles and are CPO'ing these old [censored] TDI's.

Diesel around me is pretty much = to 87 unleaded. I slug my TDI through a terrible stop and go commute and it has not complained one bit. Yeah it does regenerate a lot (its ~every 150-170 miles) but it usually finishes up within 10-15 mins before I park. I don't notice the regens if I am freeway cruising and VW algorithm forces an active regen every so many miles, I think it forces a regen every ~270 miles whether it needs it or not.

I am honestly happy as a clam with both my Jetta Sportwagens - I think its because they were such a steal and have a bumper to bumper warranty. Not a bad deal they are honestly a hoot to drive.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by edyvw
I said DPF technology is stout. DEF is part of SCR, which I stated there are issues around! DPF was utilized long before SCR made its way into personal vehicles. My BMW X5 35d would do regeneration in 10 seconds.
My mistake on the typo (DPF versus DEF). Diesel Particulate Filters are wear items with most light trucks requiring replacement after 100K (post warranty), they are incredibly expensive and overall, I would challenge anyone to show where a passenger car/light truck modern diesel costs less initially and to operate than a comparable gasoline engine.10 seconds to do a full regen? BMW is chasing the wrong rainbow then--they should be licensing that technology to every other diesel OEM. I have not seen or read of any modern diesel performing a regen in 10 seconds. I stand by my thoughts, unless the design of emissions systems change, diesels in passenger cars will disappear in two decades or less--especially with the increase of power and fuel economy via turbocharging in many gasoline platforms.

DPF on BMW M57 engine will last well over 200k (I think BMW is projecting 250k). And yes, then customer should replace it. As for technology, BMW is far ahead anyone in EU when it comes to personal vehicle diesels and considering what they are managing to do with inline 6 engines, I think they know what they doing. As for technology, their engines are in Toyota's vehicles and were utilized a lot by GM Europe.
However, I agree with you when it comes to SCR. DPF? So, so, I personally could live with that. But SCR issues? In my ownership of X5 I never had a single issue with vehicle, except that SCR stuff. And that plagues other cars too, as serial numbers of sensors, heating units for DEF tanks etc. are exactly same for BMW, VW, MB, Ford, GM, Toyota etc. Though this was 1st gen. SCR system. We are now in 3rd generation, and things could be bit better, but there are just too many moving parts and compared to current 6cyl or 4cyl turbo gas engines, it does not make sense.



+1

IIRC a small company in Canada was making upgraded SCR components.

SCR component failure was the only negative I experienced with my 335d. Sometimes I find myself missing that car.


Sometimes? You have no idea how is to sit every morning in Toyota SIenna after driving X5 diesel.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by TiredTrucker
Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by 4WD
Never saw the final bill for that disaster … but had to be astronomical … and lasting effects
The latest estimate has VW dieselgate losses at over $25 billion, and counting. That doesn't even include the loss in sales that the negative publicity has caused or the monetary losses that VW dealers have suffered.


I was one of those who thought highly of VW for trying to think of their customers instead of cowering to the sky is falling bunny hugger crowd and EPA who wants the air coming out the tailpipe to be cleaner than the air that went in the intake. I would have thought it would have caused VW sales to increase. Shows how the media can really manipulate the public. All VW did was tune down the EGR usage a little some other aspects so the motors were more efficient. So what there was a slight up tick in NOx and such in some conditions. Still cleaner by a long stretch compared to pre-emission diesels. And with 2.5 million commercial vehicles running around, each putting out as much exhaust in one year that would take 5 VW cars running 100,000 miles per year each to generate, the variance from the EPA standard would never have made a bit of difference in the overall picture. A lot of paranoia for nothing.

I feel the same. VW tried, kudos to them.

Give me a break man. Vehicle manufacturers (cars, trucks, whatever) have a huge influence on environmental policy making. Do you guys really think CAFE are just sent to manufacturers without their input? VW has huge clout over European parliament and how decisions are made. This mumbo jumbo what is good for business is good for America gave us BP spill, VW, now Boeing (among other things).
WHen company decides that B&O amplifier is more important than proper size DEF tank (Audi Q7) and than they manipulate NOx so that amplifier could be fitted, is really pathetic. What kudos man?

 

[DallasTexas]

I am on my 4th MB diesel. I like em. But my 2011 MB GL350 Blutec had all kind of issues with DEF system. It was a dealer Queen. I went backwards and bought a E320 CDI with OM648 L6 turbo. A great car. If something happens and I have to replace it I will probably get a Highlander Hybrid as I feel the newer Diesel's are more complicated to meet new Emissions and I can't monkey around too much.

 

[dustyroads]

I was speed reading through this thread and at least a couple times it was mentioned that the DPF would need replacing at some point. Is it different than a DPF on a heavy duty truck? I don't know, I'm just asking because with big trucks it is just removed, cleaned and reinstalled. Yeah it costs a few hundred dollars but I'm guessing that a "new" DPF would be very expensive.

If a car dealer doesn't offer the cleaning service, the heavy truck dealers (and some independent shops) would be glad to provide the service. Maybe there's something I don't know or understand about the smaller DPFs that don't allow such cleaning?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by dustyroads
I was speed reading through this thread and at least a couple times it was mentioned that the DPF would need replacing at some point. Is it different than a DPF on a heavy duty truck? I don't know, I'm just asking because with big trucks it is just removed, cleaned and reinstalled. Yeah it costs a few hundred dollars but I'm guessing that a "new" DPF would be very expensive.

If a car dealer doesn't offer the cleaning service, the heavy truck dealers (and some independent shops) would be glad to provide the service. Maybe there's something I don't know or understand about the smaller DPFs that don't allow such cleaning?

Yes, some people do it. But problem with vehicle DPF is size of it. Still, I know few instances where cleaning did not work long term. It was OK for few thousands miles.

 

[dustyroads]

Ok, that did cross my mind I guess. I don't yet know if there's any difference on heavy trucks between a new DPF and one that was cleaned at 350k miles. I know the guy that cleaned my first one said some are worse than others but they can be cleaned up to near new performance (exhaust flow).

Going back 10+ years, I read articles saying that deposits baked on to the DPF weren't all the same. It was said that engine oils heavy on magnesium created deposits much more tenacious than oils that were primarily calcium based (speaking of detergents).

 

[Huie83]

Originally Posted by pezzy669
I took advantage of the VW dieselgate post-fix and picked up two low mileage (65k on my '12 and 48k on my other half '11) Sportwagen TDI's that were both certified pre-owned (2 yr/unlimited bumper to bumper) and have 5 year up to 120k dieselgate warranty that pretty much covers everything powertrain related EXCEPT the DSG gearbox. Got them both for a screaming bargain and don't really have to worry about any repairs. Yes VW in an effort to recoup some $$$$ really lifted CPO restrictions for the TDI vehicles and are CPO'ing these old [censored] TDI's.

Diesel around me is pretty much = to 87 unleaded. I slug my TDI through a terrible stop and go commute and it has not complained one bit. Yeah it does regenerate a lot (its ~every 150-170 miles) but it usually finishes up within 10-15 mins before I park. I don't notice the regens if I am freeway cruising and VW algorithm forces an active regen every so many miles, I think it forces a regen every ~270 miles whether it needs it or not.

I am honestly happy as a clam with both my Jetta Sportwagens - I think its because they were such a steal and have a bumper to bumper warranty. Not a bad deal they are honestly a hoot to drive.





Totally on board with you. I also picked up a CPO 2013 Golf TDI almost a year ago now. I also slug mine through mostly city traffic and it's been great, 35.5 MPG average typically. Took a few hour trip doing ~65 MPH this past weekend and was pulling 47-50MPG most of the way. Love the power these little diesel's have as well, the 240 LBS of torque in such small vehicles really scoots and makes them lots of fun to drive.

As for the DPF, if mine gives me any issues I'll just do a delete and tune on it. $1500 and it's all set for many more years.

 

[nthach]

Diesels don't make sense in the city or for everyday driving unless there's some congestion-free stretch of highway where the car can be run at speed for 30-60 minutes to regenerate the exhaust aftertreatment system. Not to mention for anything using SCR, needing to top off the DPF and using special oils, etc. I dunno how trash trucks and buses get run hot enough to get the DPT/SCR to regenerate, I think Cummins programs a feature to spike the exhaust temp via injecting fuel post-turbo for transit bus applications so it regenerates when the bus is moving but when it's stopped the temps will be increased?

Hybrids make more sense for the city driver, but the traction battery is a ticking time bomb in a Prius. Toyota had a diesel that met EPA07 and Mazda/Subaru had diesels that met EPA10 without SCR. If Toyota did sell that diesel in the US, the Prius would have been threatened by a diesel Corolla that would beat it in MPG and fun, no batteries required.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted by A_Harman

SCR is helpful in that it allows injection timing to be advanced to get better fuel economy, and the extra NOx that is emitted from the engine can be reduced by the DEF. And SCR is way better for engines than EGR.


Yep, that's what screwed over Navistar with the MaxxForce engines and Cat as well. Even though Detroit Diesel is a part of Daimler(who is part of the Bluetec consortium along with VAG, BMW and Volvo), Cummins also decided SCR was a better strategy than EGR for meeting EPA10/14. Ironically, Navistar is now in the VW umbrella under MAN and the new A-series engines are using SCR.

The introduction of zeolite catalysts enabled SCR to work. DPFs, from what I read are basically similar to the ceramic or metallic core of a catalytic converter but flow like Donaldson's PowerCore filters to trap soot.