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High Ester based oils #51664
10/30/03 04:06 PM
10/30/03 04:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 31,421
NJ
buster Offline OP
buster  Offline OP

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 31,421
NJ
Would it be accurate to say that RL, S2k, GC and D1 are the oils that contain a higher percentage of esters to PAO then other synthetic oils? [Smile]

Re: High Ester based oils #51665
10/30/03 06:15 PM
10/30/03 06:15 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,785
Dixie
TooSlick Offline
TooSlick  Offline

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,785
Dixie
Buster,

Price per quart is the best indicator of how much ester their potentially is. Stuff that sells for $3.00-$5.00/quart is largely PAO or Group III based. If you look at ester based two stroke oils, for example, they are more like $7.00-$9.00/quart.

Amsoil is primarily using very high quality PAO's for their basestocks - I have no idea about other companies ....The term "more ester" could mean 20% rather than 10%.

Ted

Re: High Ester based oils #51666
10/30/03 08:42 PM
10/30/03 08:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 150
Indiana
cvl Offline
cvl  Offline

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 150
Indiana
Motul makes some 100% ester basestock oils.

Re: High Ester based oils #51667
10/31/03 09:14 AM
10/31/03 09:14 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,845
Terry Offline
Terry  Offline

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,845
Buster,


Molakule has listed base oil levels by brand on this site in the past, please search it and post here if you would.

VP racing fuels motor oils are nearly 100 % Ester bases. Coconut oil is a part of the mix.

Castrol makes a RS 10w-50 that has a large ester component but is limited to certain markets.

Aside from Redline the others above contain much less than 40% ester bases.

The GC 0w-30 is a unknown unless someone wants to fork over about $400 for a GC burn to determine the oils used.

TD

Re: High Ester based oils #51668
10/30/03 11:48 PM
10/30/03 11:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 150
Indiana
cvl Offline
cvl  Offline

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 150
Indiana
Again, Motul has a few 100% ester oils.

Re: High Ester based oils #51669
10/30/03 11:54 PM
10/30/03 11:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 548
Texas
Jason8691 Offline
Jason8691  Offline

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 548
Texas
Neo claims their oil is 100% diester based. I have a quart and am sending of a sample to Blackstone for a VOA this weekend.

Re: High Ester based oils #51670
10/31/03 12:08 AM
10/31/03 12:08 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 20,234
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
Global Moderator
MolaKule  Offline
Global Moderator

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 20,234
Iowegia - USA
Laboratory grade (experimental grade) synthetic esters are running at $0.035/mL or $1.05/ounce.

In some cases I make my own esters with raw materials because it's cheaper and because purchased finished products are way too expensive for low volume production.


I think GC has some some esters, but no where near the level of Redline nor are they the same type. I think GC is using a relatively old formula that Pennzoil used some time ago:
1. Two synthetsized hydrocarbon oils - PAO's and alkylated naphthalenes/benzenes
2. Some 2-ethylhexyl adipate (di-ester)
3. Improved additive package

Pennzoils old synthetic formula was superb.

[ October 31, 2003, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

Re: High Ester based oils #51671
10/31/03 01:21 AM
10/31/03 01:21 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 8,936
SC
G-MAN Offline
G-MAN  Offline

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 8,936
SC
quote:
Originally posted by MolaKule:
I think GC has some some esters, but no where near the level of Redline nor are they the same type. I think GC is using a relatively old formula that Pennzoil used some time ago:
1. Two synthetsized hydrocarbon oils - PAO's and alkylated naphthalenes/benzenes
2. Some 2-ethylhexyl adipate (di-ester)
3. Improved additive package

Pennzoils old synthetic formula was superb.

MK, what happened to your posted opinion that the German Syntec was mostly esters based on its specs and pour point? [Confused]

Re: High Ester based oils #51672
10/31/03 01:24 AM
10/31/03 01:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 20,234
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
Global Moderator
MolaKule  Offline
Global Moderator

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 20,234
Iowegia - USA
As I recall, (corect me if I am wrong) I said it did contain some esters, but they had to be diesters to get that low a PP.

Re: High Ester based oils #51673
10/31/03 02:14 AM
10/31/03 02:14 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 208
Mississauga, ON
Ferrari Offline
Ferrari  Offline

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 208
Mississauga, ON
quote:
Originally posted by cvl:
Motul makes some 100% ester basestock oils.

Yes it does, but Motul is so crappy when it comes to giving out oil specs and answering customers' questions that these oils are largely ignored in NA.

Re: High Ester based oils #51674
10/31/03 02:24 AM
10/31/03 02:24 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,756
RI
unDummy Offline
unDummy  Offline

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,756
RI
Like Castrol isn't crappy about oil specs [I dont know]

The only oil specs needed are UOAs vs the VOAs.

Why people constantly email/annoy/harass oil companies for info that is internal/proprietary/secret is beyond me.

Availability is the only reason why I use certain oils. Get some of these "boutique" oils in local stores and I'll buy.

Re: High Ester based oils #51675
10/31/03 04:17 AM
10/31/03 04:17 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 948
Kyiv, Ukraine
Primus Offline
Primus  Offline

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 948
Kyiv, Ukraine
quote:
Originally posted by MolaKule:
In some cases I make my own esters with raw materials because it's cheaper and because purchased finished products are way too expensive for low volume production.

Need partners to create the company and start commercial production ? I'm ready. Anybody else ?
The offer is valid until Monday, then all others just shareholders !

quote:
I think GC has some some esters, but no where near the level of Redline nor are they the same type. I think GC is using a relatively old formula that Pennzoil used some time ago:
1. Two synthetsized hydrocarbon oils - PAO's and alkylated naphthalenes/benzenes
2. Some 2-ethylhexyl adipate (di-ester)
3. Improved additive package

For such thoughts about M1 SS and GC some guys almost excommunicated me from our BITOG church !

Hope you have some info on Motul 300V and would help with the following questions:

1). What can be the reason of quite low Flash Point (COC) and Shear Stability Index of 300V ? The use of some "cheap" esters ? Interesting that according to CEC L-14-A-93 test 300V oils are less shear stable then 8100 or 6100, but the real engine tests show completely different picture.

2). Why do esters oils (namely Motul) usually exibit 1.5 times higher corrosivity then PAO and 2.0 times higher then mineral oils ?

................... 300V 15W-50 ... 10W-40 ... 8100 0W-40 ... 6100 5W-40
Shear stability ......... 4,3 % ..... 8,5 % ....... 1,5 % ........... 1,8 %
HT/HS .................... 5,4 ........ 3,93 ......... 3,66 ............. 3,57
NOACK .................... 8,3 ........ 6,0 ........... 9,8 .............. 11,1
Flash point .............. 218 ........ 236 .......... 226 .............. 228

0W-40 : Esters + some amount of PAO.
5W-40 : PAO + some amount of gr.III & Esters

It's also difficult to understand what Motul has changed in formulations and why, but until 2000-2002 Flash Points and NOACK were different:

15W-50 232 and 4,0 %
10W-40 218 and 6,5 %

The density of oils have been changed too.

TYI.

Re: High Ester based oils #51676
10/31/03 06:48 AM
10/31/03 06:48 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 6,650
Huntington Beach, CA
tenderloin Offline
tenderloin  Offline

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 6,650
Huntington Beach, CA
Torcos racing line (SR-5 $10 per qt.) and new SL rated line (SR-1 $5 per qt.)are Group lV and V. Per Torco they do not consider Group lll as true synthetics

[ October 31, 2003, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: tenderloin ]

Re: High Ester based oils #51677
11/01/03 01:00 PM
11/01/03 01:00 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 11,006
Canberra ACT Australia
sprintman Offline
sprintman  Offline

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 11,006
Canberra ACT Australia
Terry will you have more info on the VP oils soon? I will be testing their new RS-7 two stroke oil in a kart engine in about a month when VP Oz have it. VP say it's the best two stroke available period and I see US Rotax series already picked it up as the oil of choice.

Re: High Ester based oils #51678
11/02/03 04:40 AM
11/02/03 04:40 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,790
San Antonio, TX
Last_Z Offline
Last_Z  Offline

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,790
San Antonio, TX
quote:
Originally posted by Terry:
Buster,


Molakule has listed base oil levels by brand on this site in the past, please search it and post here if you would.

VP racing fuels motor oils are nearly 100 % Ester bases. Coconut oil is a part of the mix.

Castrol makes a RS 10w-50 that has a large ester component but is limited to certain markets.

Aside from Redline the others above contain much less than 40% ester bases.

The GC 0w-30 is a unknown unless someone wants to fork over about $400 for a GC burn to determine the oils used.

TD

I'd be willing to send a small amount of money along with other members to do testing like this.
Anyone wanna jump in?
Rick

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