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Re: 737 max... what now? [Re: CT8] #5165791 07/19/19 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by CT8
Does any one else ponder the cost of having the Aircraft sit. and the loss of revenue ?


Sidenote: heard on the news that Boeing said this whole debacle will be costing them 5 Billion dollars when taking into account all aspects.

Re: 737 max... what now? [Re: Tdog02] #5166279 07/20/19 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Tdog02
Question to all the aviation specialists who follow this forum. Is the 737 - Max gonna get back in the air or has their reputation been damaged beyond repair? They are still sitting all around the country, is the FAA any closer to certifying their return or will they go down in history as the albatross around Boeing's neck?


The 737-Max will return to the air with modified control law equations, dual sensing, better FCC communications, and improved training for the flight crews.

As others have stated, experienced flight crews have been able to mitigate or deal with the MCAS so part of the problem is crew experience, training, and flight time.

Uneducated journalists and others outside the aerospace realm have only provided conjecture as to what really happened. The NTSB will provide their assessment as to what Boeing and the FAA needs to change. And I suspect much of the disinformation we have seen was aided by Airbus.

As far as internal changes to Boeing and the FAA, I have no doubt there will be some major changes in both sectors.

Loss of life is tragic no matter which aircraft goes down. I was on a team that investigated both the TWA Flight 800 explosion and the Pittsburgh USAir flight 427. As you sift through the wreckage it really hits you hard and makes you want to make things better and safer for all because you or your family could be on the next flight that has problems.


[Disclosure: I was a former Scientist/Engineer at Boeing for 20 years working in both the Commercial and Defense areas].

Last edited by MolaKule; 07/20/19 10:41 AM.

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Re: 737 max... what now? [Re: MolaKule] #5166334 07/20/19 12:13 PM
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Extensively trimmed ...
Originally Posted by MolaKule
The 737-Max will return to the air with modified control law equations, dual sensing, ...


How reliable are the AOA sensors? In the 2 foreign carrier crashes, one incoming flight had experienced issues and had some service work reportedly done, so I might say at least 3 had failed? Is there something that would be better? I know some experimental avionics providers use a pair of pitot impact tubes at a separation angle; not moving, but as good?

Re: 737 max... what now? [Re: Cujet] #5166398 07/20/19 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Cujet
It's good to consider the fact that the Max crashes happened with foreign crews. In a recent test, no American crews crashed when given the fault in the sim, while various foreign ones did.

The difference between a non event and a fatal crash is often a very minor one. I'd guess that had the crashes not occurred, Boeing and the FAA would have, in time, revised the system to a normal level of functionality through normal product improvement channels. The Max is very likely to be a fine airplane once it emerges from this debacle. The level of scrutiny is massive and the resulting product will be well understood.


There’s been so much Bravo Sierra in this thread up until this point. Good to see some common sense from you and a couple of others.


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Re: 737 max... what now? [Re: George Bynum] #5166423 07/20/19 02:24 PM
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MolaKule Offline
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Originally Posted by George Bynum
Extensively trimmed ...
Originally Posted by MolaKule
The 737-Max will return to the air with modified control law equations, dual sensing, ...


How reliable are the AOA sensors? In the 2 foreign carrier crashes, one incoming flight had experienced issues and had some service work reportedly done, so I might say at least 3 had failed? Is there something that would be better? I know some experimental avionics providers use a pair of pitot impact tubes at a separation angle; not moving, but as good?



I can assure you that sensor reliability will be closely examined, as will the interactions among all sensor inputs and Flight Control Computer calculations.

Last edited by MolaKule; 07/20/19 02:24 PM.

Charlie Eppes: "What do you think we should do now?"
Don Eppes: "The same thing when I was in school and I didn't know the answer – fake it." From NUMB3RS
Re: 737 max... what now? [Re: Tdog02] #5166663 07/20/19 07:18 PM
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I'm a 3 million mile flyer... 2.2 of it with United. I certainly like some aircraft over others, and some airlines over others. I won't have a second thought getting on a 737 max, even if it was the first one released to fly again.


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Re: 737 max... what now? [Re: c502cid] #5166798 07/20/19 09:29 PM
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With all the scrutiny, the 737-Max will be the safest aircraft flying when returned to service.


Some days you eat the bear, some days the bear eats you.....
Re: 737 max... what now? [Re: George Bynum] #5166968 07/21/19 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by George Bynum


How reliable are the AOA sensors?


They are generally reliable. It would be interesting to review the MTBF (mean time between failure) of the various AOA part numbers and types.

The ones we use on the Gulfstream G550 are P/N 0861FW2, the vane type, we've changed one in 15 years. (New cost is about $13.5K) The reason for the replacement was due to damage. The paint shop hit it with the DA sander during aircraft re-paint.

I don't know for sure who makes it, but I'd guess Rosemount. Neat looking unit, with an electrically heated vane, and a heated base.


People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: 737 max... what now? [Re: Cujet] #5167196 07/21/19 11:05 AM
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Using Google to search "Rosemount Aerospace" resulted in one interesting hit, https://www.thegazette.com/subject/...echnologies-rosemount-aerospace-20190318

Independent perhaps of brand, it looks like lots of REPORTED repairs/replacements of AOA sensors.

My first idea was of a cantilever mounted sensor ... bearings would see lots of unusual loads; perhaps a simple frame and the vane between 2 bearings would be better? https://utcaerospacesystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Angle-of-Attack-AOA-Systems.pdf shows cantilever and says reliability is good. That's the 0861 series you have. Makes me wonder if it is perhaps not the sensor at fault ... just one thing to easily change chasing the REAL problem.

I've used Rosemount industrially for some 50 years, very good stuff. It will be nice to learn the root cause.

Re: 737 max... what now? [Re: c502cid] #5167201 07/21/19 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by c502cid
I'm a 3 million mile flyer... 2.2 of it with United. I certainly like some aircraft over others, and some airlines over others. I won't have a second thought getting on a 737 max, even if it was the first one released to fly again.




I agree. While I prefer some aircraft over others it has never prompted me to refuse to get on. I wonder how many of these people that say they will never fly a certain aircraft will actually follow through on that?

Last edited by PimTac; 07/21/19 11:13 AM.

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Re: 737 max... what now? [Re: Tdog02] #5167435 07/21/19 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by c502cid
I'm a 3 million mile flyer... 2.2 of it with United. I certainly like some aircraft over others, and some airlines over others. I won't have a second thought getting on a 737 max, even if it was the first one released to fly again.




I agree. While I prefer some aircraft over others it has never prompted me to refuse to get on. I wonder how many of these people that say they will never fly a certain aircraft will actually follow through on that?


I wonder how many of those who say they'll never fly a certain type even know what they're booked on.
With the big four domestic carriers, you might catch anything from a recent delivery Boeing or Airbus to an MD-80 built before God made dirt and you'd have no legitimate worries about any of them.


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Re: 737 max... what now? [Re: c502cid] #5167440 07/21/19 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by c502cid
I'm a 3 million mile flyer... 2.2 of it with United. I certainly like some aircraft over others, and some airlines over others. I won't have a second thought getting on a 737 max, even if it was the first one released to fly again.


I’m easily that but spread over many international/US airlines … and agree 100% …

Re: 737 max... what now? [Re: Tdog02] #5167499 07/21/19 05:01 PM
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I don't have a lot of time spent flying, although planes do interest me a lot(I enjoy the flight itself, but everything involved in getting on it).

In any case, I have a trip planned with SWA in October. When first booked it, I thought there was a decent chance the MAX would be back in service and that I would fly on it for that trip. Now, it's looking like they won't be flying again.

Regardless, even if they are back, I will have zero hesitation about them. The aircraft seems fundamentally sound, and when it DOES return it will be under the microscope probably more than any commercial airplane currently in the skies. So, in that sense, I'd almost feel safer flying on one than anything else.


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Re: 737 max... what now? [Re: bunnspecial] #5167520 07/21/19 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by bunnspecial
The aircraft seems fundamentally sound


If it was, it wouldn't need a kludge like this.

As I understand it, the problem is that they couldn't fit larger engines in a position where they wouldn't interfere with flight stability without a significant redesign, so instead of spending the money on that, they introduced a software kludge to deal with that engine-induced instability.

I'm not saying I won't fly on one, but I won't fly on one for several years until the new kludge has been proven to not cause any more crashes.

Re: 737 max... what now? [Re: emg] #5167535 07/21/19 05:51 PM
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Actually Astro explained this better …

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