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Synthetic 5W30 D1/Gen2 vs. Synthetic 10W30 ? #5166592 07/20/19 07:00 PM
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ChrisD46 Offline OP
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Say you have a PP , M1 or Valvoline synthetic 5W30 D1/Gen 2 rated oil versus the same brand series synthetic 10W30 : What would I be giving up (if anything) in the way of protection or other key criteria if I use the 10W30 without the D1/Gen 2 approvals ? ... Is an oil company going to spend the money and time to make the 10W30 formulation that much different from the D1/Gen 2 rated 5W30 ?


'17 Hyundai Sonata 2.4L GDI 5W30 Valvoline Advanced Syn / Fram Ultra
'10 Hyundai Elantra 2.0L 5W30 QSUD / Fram Ultra
'07 Kia Sedona 3.8L 5W30 M1 EP HM / Fram Ultra
Re: Synthetic 5W30 D1/Gen2 vs. Synthetic 10W30 ? [Re: ChrisD46] #5166600 07/20/19 07:08 PM
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Garak Offline
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Personally, I can't see there being a huge difference in formulation, assuming it's the same product tier, and that they're not using a legacy formula. If they're formulated the same, the only key criteria you're giving up is that the 10w-XX doesn't meet their cold numbers requirements. Some might worry under warranty. Others won't.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Synthetic 5W30 D1/Gen2 vs. Synthetic 10W30 ? [Re: Garak] #5166610 07/20/19 07:15 PM
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ChrisD46 Offline OP
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*Yes , other than the obvious cold temp requirement / difference.
Originally Posted by Garak
Personally, I can't see there being a huge difference in formulation, assuming it's the same product tier, and that they're not using a legacy formula. If they're formulated the same, the only key criteria you're giving up is that the 10w-XX doesn't meet their cold numbers requirements. Some might worry under warranty. Others won't.


'17 Hyundai Sonata 2.4L GDI 5W30 Valvoline Advanced Syn / Fram Ultra
'10 Hyundai Elantra 2.0L 5W30 QSUD / Fram Ultra
'07 Kia Sedona 3.8L 5W30 M1 EP HM / Fram Ultra
Re: Synthetic 5W30 D1/Gen2 vs. Synthetic 10W30 ? [Re: ChrisD46] #5166624 07/20/19 07:31 PM
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SR5 Offline
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Good question. I think the only reason GM don’t allow a 10W30 Dexos oil is that they want all Dexos oils to be suitable for all climates. So a non-oil person (most of the world, and half of the mechanics I know) can just grab a jug labeled Dexos1 and know it will work. No need to match viscosity grades to climates.

I personally think a good name brand (PP, M1, Edge, VAS) 10W-30 with both SN-Plus and Euro A5/B5 will match any Dexos1-Gen2 oil for overall quality.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Castrol Edge 10W30 A5/B5 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: Synthetic 5W30 D1/Gen2 vs. Synthetic 10W30 ? [Re: SR5] #5166630 07/20/19 07:38 PM
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Garak Offline
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In addition to that, which is certainly true, wanting a more suitable all climate oil, GM had, prior to dexos1, already had shelved 10w-30 recommendations in gassers. There wouldn't be a lot of point in going backwards, despite the fact that most of us here can make viscosity decisions. For me, if it can't be used all year, it goes way down on my list of choices.

Though, for something like ChrisD46's Valvoline Advanced 5w-30 versus their 10w-30, I wouldn't expect a big formulation difference. The additive package should be much the same and I certainly can't see the Noack going through the roof by some magic.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Synthetic 5W30 D1/Gen2 vs. Synthetic 10W30 ? [Re: ChrisD46] #5166632 07/20/19 07:39 PM
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smile2


2003 Avalanche Z71 5.3
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1989 Yamaha moto 4 250
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Re: Synthetic 5W30 D1/Gen2 vs. Synthetic 10W30 ? [Re: ChrisD46] #5166707 07/20/19 08:58 PM
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Wouldn't the Dexos 1 approved oil have to meet tighter/better performance requirements with respect to piston cleanliness, deposit control and oxidative/thermal stability over and above GF-5? You already have the LSPI thing addressed with the SN+, so no worries there if you're a GDI owner..

If I'm not mistaken when GF-6 comes out next spring, it will essentially incorporates all those D1G2 performance requirements plus address timing chain wear???

Re: Synthetic 5W30 D1/Gen2 vs. Synthetic 10W30 ? [Re: Mad_Hatter] #5166728 07/20/19 09:13 PM
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Garak Offline
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The dexos1 has those requirements, but the question here is how different would the 5w-30 dexos1 licensed synthetic be in comparison to the 10w-30 of the same tier. That is, would it be essentially a dexos1 pass except for grade?

Take PP 5w-30, for instance. When it was reformulated for dexos1 Gen 2, was 10w-30 also reformulated the same way, by additive package, or did they leave that one grade alone? I should think it would all be done at the same time, but I really wouldn't have a concrete answer for that. I couldn't see having three grades using the new dexos1 package and the one grade using the old one, but I certainly couldn't verify that.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Synthetic 5W30 D1/Gen2 vs. Synthetic 10W30 ? [Re: ChrisD46] #5166739 07/20/19 09:29 PM
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Gebo Offline
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I have wondered the same thing. Is the 10w-30 a cheaper version of the 5w-30 that has a cheaper makeup than the Dexos 5w-30? Great question. I wonder if anyone here knows for sure?


'98 LEX LS400 295K
'02 4Runner 235K
'05 Lex LS430 85K
'07 Lex GX470 65K

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Re: Synthetic 5W30 D1/Gen2 vs. Synthetic 10W30 ? [Re: Garak] #5166769 07/20/19 10:01 PM
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Mad_Hatter Offline
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Originally Posted by Garak
The dexos1 has those requirements, but the question here is how different would the 5w-30 dexos1 licensed synthetic be in comparison to the 10w-30 of the same tier. That is, would it be essentially a dexos1 pass except for grade?

Take PP 5w-30, for instance. When it was reformulated for dexos1 Gen 2, was 10w-30 also reformulated the same way, by additive package, or did they leave that one grade alone? I should think it would all be done at the same time, but I really wouldn't have a concrete answer for that. I couldn't see having three grades using the new dexos1 package and the one grade using the old one, but I certainly couldn't verify that.

Oh I see. It could in fact be of a D1G2 performance level but without the license. Could be... maybe the ROI isn't there (relatively low sales volume in the PCMO market?) at a 10w30, to justify the licensing cost???

Re: Synthetic 5W30 D1/Gen2 vs. Synthetic 10W30 ? [Re: Mad_Hatter] #5166779 07/20/19 10:17 PM
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Garak Offline
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They can't even license since GM requires a 5w-XX or a 0w-XX ILSAC to start.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Synthetic 5W30 D1/Gen2 vs. Synthetic 10W30 ? [Re: ChrisD46] #5166882 07/21/19 02:51 AM
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Quote
What would I be giving up (if anything) in the way of protection or other key criteria if I use the 10W30 without the D1/Gen 2 approvals ?


I would never think of it that way. I think of it as what I give up to choose a 5w-30 vs. a 10w-30. Weaker base oil, more VII's to make a slightly better extreme cold pumpability. Unless I really need that extra flow at -30c (for 5w) that 10w has at -25c, I'm not making that trade down.

Re: Synthetic 5W30 D1/Gen2 vs. Synthetic 10W30 ? [Re: ChrisD46] #5166888 07/21/19 03:06 AM
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I’ve been wondering the exact same thing. I want to run mobile 1 10W-30 high mileage in our turbo engine because of the bump I get in HTHS, however I’m somewhat afraid I’ll lose my timing chain & LSPI protection. With both fuel dilution and the extra heat this engine makes it would be nice to use something at 3.5 or higher.

Re: Synthetic 5W30 D1/Gen2 vs. Synthetic 10W30 ? [Re: Ammofirst] #5166904 07/21/19 05:51 AM
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SR5 Offline
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Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Wouldn't the Dexos 1 approved oil have to meet tighter/better performance requirements with respect to piston cleanliness, deposit control and oxidative/thermal stability over and above GF-5? You already have the LSPI thing addressed with the SN+, so no worries there if you're a GDI owner..


Yes Dexos does require more performance, which is why you need another spec like Euro (ACEA) A5/B5 or A3/B3/B4 to ensure these (or similar) better performance requirements are met. I think it’s harder to meet A5/B5 than Dexos1 given how few Dexos1-Gen2 oils also carry A5/B5. However M1 5W30 and PP 5W30 are both D1G2 and A5/B5.

I don’t think it’s price holding the others back from claiming the Euro ACEA specs as these are mostly self certified and cost very little to claim. It’s not a license rather a performance claim you need to establish.

Unfortunately 10W30 is not allowed as a Dexos viscosity grade, however it’s fine to make any Euro spec it meets.

Originally Posted by Ammofirst
I want to run mobile 1 10W-30 high mileage in our turbo engine because of the bump I get in HTHS, however I’m somewhat afraid I’ll lose my timing chain & LSPI protection. With both fuel dilution and the extra heat this engine makes it would be nice to use something at 3.5 or higher.


Vanilla M1 10W30 is A5/B5 (low HTHS)
M1 10W30 High Mileage is A3/B3 (high HTHS)
So both are high quality full synthetic oils. They are also both SN-Plus for LSPI protection.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Castrol Edge 10W30 A5/B5 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: Synthetic 5W30 D1/Gen2 vs. Synthetic 10W30 ? [Re: SR5] #5166908 07/21/19 06:00 AM
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*Could M1 10W30 HM and vanilla M1 10W30 be the best of the 10W30 synthetics ?
Originally Posted by SR5
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Wouldn't the Dexos 1 approved oil have to meet tighter/better performance requirements with respect to piston cleanliness, deposit control and oxidative/thermal stability over and above GF-5? You already have the LSPI thing addressed with the SN+, so no worries there if you're a GDI owner..


Yes Dexos does require more performance, which is why you need another spec like Euro (ACEA) A5/B5 or A3/B3/B4 to ensure these (or similar) better performance requirements are met. I think it’s harder to meet A5/B5 than Dexos1 given how few Dexos1-Gen2 oils also carry A5/B5. However M1 5W30 and PP 5W30 are both D1G2 and A5/B5.

I don’t think it’s price holding the others back from claiming the Euro ACEA specs as these are mostly self certified and cost very little to claim. It’s not a license rather a performance claim you need to establish.

Unfortunately 10W30 is not allowed as a Dexos viscosity grade, however it’s fine to make any Euro spec it meets.

Originally Posted by Ammofirst
I want to run mobile 1 10W-30 high mileage in our turbo engine because of the bump I get in HTHS, however I’m somewhat afraid I’ll lose my timing chain & LSPI protection. With both fuel dilution and the extra heat this engine makes it would be nice to use something at 3.5 or higher.


Vanilla M1 10W30 is A5/B5 (low HTHS)
M1 10W30 High Mileage is A3/B3 (high HTHS)
So both are high quality full synthetic oils. They are also both SN-Plus for LSPI protection.


'17 Hyundai Sonata 2.4L GDI 5W30 Valvoline Advanced Syn / Fram Ultra
'10 Hyundai Elantra 2.0L 5W30 QSUD / Fram Ultra
'07 Kia Sedona 3.8L 5W30 M1 EP HM / Fram Ultra
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