F-14 Questions Answered - Ask Away

Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by IndyFan
Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by IndyFan
Watch to the very end and you just might see a Tomcat! ...

Wondering what it is. All American ones have been rendered inoperable. I know there are some at museums, but they've been gutted and most of the parts shredded to keep them from possibly being acquired by Iran.


Maybe old extra footage from the original filming of Top Gun?


Either a flashback or it's an Iranian plane?

I looked it up and apparently several are intact but in the big boneyard in Arizona. However, that's probably a more secured location than most aviation museums. There's one on display at the Oakland Aviation Museum, but I'm sure that's been gutted.
 
Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by Wolf359

Either a flashback or it's an Iranian plane?

I looked it up and apparently several are intact but in the big boneyard in Arizona. However, that's probably a more secured location than most aviation museums. There's one on display at the Oakland Aviation Museum, but I'm sure that's been gutted.


Or it's not that hard to shoot footage of a plane and then use CGI to convert it to an F-14. Probably easier than some of the other CGI effects they do these days. You get so used to it these days sometimes you read it was real afterwards but while watching it, you think it's just really good CGI.
 
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by Wolf359

Either a flashback or it's an Iranian plane?

I looked it up and apparently several are intact but in the big boneyard in Arizona. However, that's probably a more secured location than most aviation museums. There's one on display at the Oakland Aviation Museum, but I'm sure that's been gutted.


Or it's not that hard to shoot footage of a plane and then use CGI to convert it to an F-14. Probably easier than some of the other CGI effects they do these days. You get so used to it these days sometimes you read it was real afterwards but while watching it, you think it's just really good CGI.

Back in the mid 90s the F/A-18 became the combat aircraft of choice for movies because it had been programmed already for CGI. I remember it was even featured as a USAF plane in a few movies because they already had it set up for CGI.
 
Maybe he'll sneak in and steal one if any are still airworthy, like Clint did with that Russian thing.

IIRC, Cruise was credited as one of the Aerostar stunt pilots in "American Made", his sort of, kinda, somewhat factual, but pretty fast and loose, homage to Barry Seal and Mena Intermountain Municipal.
 
Originally Posted By: tom slick
Our local warbirds museum has a F-14, I didn't realize how big they are! That is a very large fighter.


Yeah...it sure is!!

To carry 6 of the 1,000lb AIM-54 missiles around which it was designed took a big airplane. Further, to get the radar performance (power out, and beam width)needed to meet operational requirements took a big antenna, so the nose of the airplane had to be sized for that big antenna.

I still miss the jet.

Probably always will...

Astro, if possible can you explain how wingloading affects climbing ability? Does lower wingloading help in a vertical climb or only how fast you get into the vertical?
 
Astro, if possible can you explain how wingloading affects climbing ability? Does lower wingloading help in a vertical climb or only how fast you get into the vertical?
Your question requires a fairly complex answer, and I’m on the road with just my iPad. So if it’s OK with you, I will try and answer in the next couple days.

Cheers!
 
Your question requires a fairly complex answer, and I’m on the road with just my iPad. So if it’s OK with you, I will try and answer in the next couple days.

Cheers!

Of course take your time, i did not mean to ask an overly complex question. I was watching this video on f-14 maneuvering against a smaller jet (T-38) and they made the wing loading reference at the 06:40 mark. Just made me curious. Similar discussion at the 9:20 mark. I found that double loop maneuver fascinating.

Thanks!!
 
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@Astro14 - What was the flight characteristics like in the F-14? Meaning, did it have any natural tendencies that you had to account for in flight? I've always wondered what kind of impact the wide fuselage had on flying it, if any.

Another question but on a different topic; what was the most memorable thing about it? I asked my grandfather (F-4/F-111/F-16) and uncle (F-15/F-22) the same question about each of the airframes they had experience with and would love to hear your thoughts about the F-14.
 
Hi Astro.
Thank you for an outstanding thread. I have just binge read it from start to finish and have thoroughly enjoyed it.

Did you ever fly against the Tornado F3? I believe that it was so bad they effectively kept it out of harms way in the first Gulf War.

Many thanks.
 
Here is my question: The real reason why anyone makes a big deal about this aircraft has to do with the fact that it was featured in the movie To Gun?
I think that thought does a real disservice to the airframe. There were crazy design challenges and performance requirements that the F-14 had to overcome, and a lot of cutting edge technology went into its design. While the movie certainly helped its popularity, I think it being a big deal among aviation enthusiasts goes much deeper than Top Gun.
 
Hi Astro.
Thank you for an outstanding thread. I have just binge read it from start to finish and have thoroughly enjoyed it.

Did you ever fly against the Tornado F3? I believe that it was so bad they effectively kept it out of harms way in the first Gulf War.

Many thanks.

I don't think the jet was bad, but the tactics were the problem. The ground attack versions were practiced in low-level attacks (runway attrition) and in Europe, had plenty of hilly terrain in which to hide. In the flat deserts of Iraq, it made them much easier targets for AAA and SAMs, so they had higher than expected losses, IIRC. Plus, I believe the Tornado was an all-weather attack aircraft that again, was hamstrung in the desert where they wouldn't get the kind of weather they'd need to have an advantage.

I know the F3 is the interceptor version, but I commented because the GR3 losses would have given rise to the idea they were not a good aircraft. I don't know why a Tornado F3 would have any particular trouble with what the Iraqis were flying. But I'll defer to Astro, because I'm really just guessing at all of it.

There were 6 or 7 Tornado Gr3's lost in the Gulf War, IIRC. Remember, 4 or 5 A-10's were lost, too, and Harriers took a beating as well, I think losing 3 or 4. The Harriers exhausts were not in a great place for taking a hit from a heat seaker. That was probably a big issue in making them more vulnerable, too, but their mission was the primary culprit. Flying around at 30-40,000 feet is a bit less hazardous than going after ground targets. A-10s, although slow, could take a helluva pounding and still make it back. Some I believe made it back to base, but were not flyable due to excessive damage. A Harrier with one engine and exhausts right up in the middle of the fuselage makes for an easier kill for a heat seaker.

I think those Tornado GR3's were given pretty tough missions, really. I'm pretty sure that after initial losses, they moved to higher altitude attacks.

Can't wait to hear what @Astro14 has to say about it.
 
I think that thought does a real disservice to the airframe. There were crazy design challenges and performance requirements that the F-14 had to overcome, and a lot of cutting edge technology went into its design. While the movie certainly helped its popularity, I think it being a big deal among aviation enthusiasts goes much deeper than Top Gun.
This kind of reminds me of a conversation I was having with a friend recently about the McLaren F1. So far as I can tell, its real significance is that it was the greatest driver's car ever made and has been almost unchallenged in that respect for over 20 years. But that's not why it's popular. It seems to be popular because:

1. It looks cool
2. It goes really fast
3. Its halo status among car enthusiasts has reached critical mass (people are basically socially pressured into liking it whether or not they understand why)

I bet the F-14 is like that. Plenty of reasons why it's a great fighter, but that's not what most people understand (let alone appreciate) about it. What most people understand is that it's a legendary weapon of war and Hollywood boosted its popularity.

In both cases, that opens the door for people to wonder what the fuss is all about. Every once in a while, someone realizes they don't have good reasons for liking the thing, and nor do most people, so they red-pill out. Seems silly if you know what the machine really is, but it's understandable for someone who doesn't.
 
This kind of reminds me of a conversation I was having with a friend recently about the McLaren F1. So far as I can tell, its real significance is that it was the greatest driver's car ever made and has been almost unchallenged in that respect for over 20 years. But that's not why it's popular. It seems to be popular because:

1. It looks cool
2. It goes really fast
3. Its halo status among car enthusiasts has reached critical mass (people are basically socially pressured into liking it whether or not they understand why)

I bet the F-14 is like that. Plenty of reasons why it's a great fighter, but that's not what most people understand (let alone appreciate) about it. What most people understand is that it's a legendary weapon of war and Hollywood boosted its popularity.

In both cases, that opens the door for people to wonder what the fuss is all about. Every once in a while, someone realizes they don't have good reasons for liking the thing, and nor do most people, so they red-pill out. Seems silly if you know what the machine really is, but it's understandable for someone who doesn't.

I am a USAF vet and an F-15E fan, I certainly recognize and respect the F-14's importance and place in aviation history. From my perspective the popular interest in it compared to every other fighter aircraft is over the top and I do think that in large part is due to Top Gun.

I think of it like the surge in the popularity of the Pontiac Trans Am after Smokey and the Bandit. That car holds an iconic status today above all else due to the image associated with it. Had the movies never been made I think my opinion would be different.
 
Astro, if possible can you explain how wingloading affects climbing ability? Does lower wingloading help in a vertical climb or only how fast you get into the vertical?

As Astro said, it's complicated.

The simple explanation is:

Climb performance is a function of surplus power available compared to the power required for level flight. The excess power is what makes the airplane climb.

It's hard to say how wing loading will affect this as there aren't many aircraft available that have different wings with all else being equal to compare. Wing loading is going to affect induced drag so it will affect power required but aircraft with high wing loading tend to have more powerful engines anyway so...
 
I just watched the video. Now, I understand your question better.

So, the wing loading effect on climb rate is a question derived from comparing two fighters.

Let’s start with drag. There are two kinds of drag: parasitic and induced. The parasitic drag is caused by the movement of air over the whole aircraft. That includes both flying surfaces, like wings, or rudders, and non flying, like fuselage, landing gear, cockpit canopy. Parasitic drag increases with velocity squared. So, simply put, the faster you go, the more parasite drag you get.

The other kind of drag is induced. That is, created by the wing when it makes lift. Think of lift as being energy extracted from the air passing over the wing, so the more lift you make, the higher the induced drag. Induced drag is also higher at higher angles of attack.

In designing a fighter for top speed, you want the parasitic drag to be as low as possible. We will ignore the effects of speed on thrust for the moment. So, in the early days of fighter design, when engine technology was yielding lower power engines than today, Designers gave up wing area to lower the drag and achieve high speed. Airplanes like the F104, or they Mig 21, are examples of this trade off.

If you want an airplane which turns very well, you need to lower the induced drag, and in general, you do this by making a bigger wing, which lowers the angle of attack for a given amount of lift, producing better turn performance.

In comparing the performance of two different fighter aircraft, you have to consider several factors; thrust to weight ratio, wing loading, flight control authority, particularly pitch authority, high lift devices, such as slats and flaps, And all of those must be considered across the speed range in which the aircraft is operating.

High lift devices change the airflow over the wing at high angles of attack. They make the wing more efficient, and create lift at lower speed.

When you actually measure aircraft performance, one of the key factors is specific excess power. That is, the amount of engine thrust available in excess of what is required to maintain 1G flight at that altitude, and that airspeed. So, specific excess thrust comes from engine performance, engine Inlet performance, wing performance, and drag characteristics at that altitude and speed.

Further, when you measure aircraft performance, there is a speed at which the airplane turns with minimum radius, and maximum rate, with no excess thrust available. That speed, which varies with altitude, air density, and aircraft fuel and weapon loading, is known as “corner speed“.

So, back to the video. When the pilots referred to the low wing loading of the F 14, it is really more than that, it is a proxy capturing the airplane’s ability execute a maximum performance turn at either a lower corner speed, or a higher turn rate than the adversary. The F5, for example, has a pretty high wing loading, that is how they get reasonable top speed, with a simple engine in lit, and a relatively simple airframe - They lowered the drag.

But when I take an aircraft like the F5, and I put it in a high G turn, it cannot sustain high G for very long. The induced drag from the small, simple wing is too high, and the airplane slows down, because it does not have the power needed to maintain that G and that turn rate.

When I take an aircraft like the F 14, and I put it in a high G turn, it can sustain the high G, at corner airspeed, because the wing is very efficient. The wing has both large area, and high lift devices that improve performance, which lowers induced drag.

So if both the F5 and the F 14 Begin a turn, the F5 will slow down if it tries to match the same turn rate and radius. The pilot of the F5 must match the turn rate and radius of the F 14, or the F 14 gets behind it. The pilot of the F5 must match the turn rate and radius of the F 14, or the F 14 gets behind it. We used to call it “bleeding” as in bleeding airspeed.

After a turn or two, in which the F5 had to “bleed”, the F14 has the advantage. It is still going fast. Fast enough to transition to a vertical turn, or simply a vertical extension, in which the Pilot unloads the airplane, and does a zoom climb. The F5 is too slow to go into the vertical at that point, so the F 14 out climbs it, gains a position advantage, as well as sufficient separation to employ missiles.

You can think of the turns in the horizontal, but the same tactic: bleed your opponent down, can take place in vertical turns. The fighter with the better turn performance will win the turning fight.

As far as pure climb rate, Yes, with other factors being equal, the lower wing loaded fighter will climb better. But in the video, what they don’t mention, is that the F 14 has lower wing loading, better highlift devices, better acceleration, and better energy addition, which yield better corner as well as climb performance, and those advantages are best exploited in a vertical fight.

The extreme example of low wing loading, would be a glider. But they are terribly slow, and would not make a good fighter. Interestingly, the U2 has incredible climb performance despite mediocre thrust to weight, because of its glider like wing.

All fighter design is a compromise. The compromise with the F 14, was cost. The airframe performance was superlative, but it cost a lot of money to build it.
 
@Astro14 - What was the flight characteristics like in the F-14? Meaning, did it have any natural tendencies that you had to account for in flight? I've always wondered what kind of impact the wide fuselage had on flying it, if any.

Another question but on a different topic; what was the most memorable thing about it? I asked my grandfather (F-4/F-111/F-16) and uncle (F-15/F-22) the same question about each of the airframes they had experience with and would love to hear your thoughts about the F-14.

I could write a book on the flight characteristics of the F 14. I realize this is a very long thread, but I talk about a lot of that throughout my posts, and I probably did a better job writing them back then, than I can do in the time I have right now.

I think the most memorable thing about the airplane, was the things it did so very well; fly slow, go fast, land on a boat.

The F-15 Eagle is an incredible airplane, it does not fly slow as well as the F 14, and it cannot land on a carrier. Thrust to weight for the Eagle was better than the F14, but not by much, and it was all the structural strength required for Carrier operation that weighed down the Tomcat.

They were closely matched, victory was the result of the skill and tactics employed.

Maybe that’s what I remember best about the airplane, it took a good pilot to extract the best performance from the jet, Much more so than other fighters I have flown. The hornet was a beautiful airplane, it did not require skill. Just an understanding of how to maneuver.

The F-14 required a deft touch. Matched up with a good pilot, it was an incredible machine. In the hands of a bozo, it was a deadly trap, as proved by the many crashes.
 
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Hi Indyfan.
I think the Tornado GR3 was a good aircraft. It was the mission rather than the crew or aircraft that led to that high attrition rate. Flying low along a runway to deliver a JP233 munition took guts. Later missions were flown above the AAA so somewhat safer i suspect. Watch the Vid from about 9:00 mins in These guys could fly.

This is a JP233 for anyone wanting to know

Unfortunately the GR3 had no targeting pod so had to use the old Buccaneer (another superb low level attack aircraft of Navy heritage) to designate the targets.

The F3 had a reputation as a poor Fighter. It was held back in Gulf War to patrol relatively safe areas.

This of course is based purely on what i have read and been told. This is why the input from Astro is so important. Facts, not opinions or hearsay. Straight from someone who has been at the 'coal face'.
 
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If you really want to understand the fighter performance comparison, this is a great treatise on the subject. It's out of print, but lots of vendors sell used copies.

It's all about airframe performance and maneuvering, and while the weapons and systems have changed since then, the basics of flying and fighter performance have not...

Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering Hardcover – November 14, 1985 Robert L. Shaw

Also, if you want to understand how airplanes work, I really recommend this:

Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators

Written in 1965, it's still very relevant.

I'm always happy to talk about airplanes, and the F-14 in particular. This is just a busy week, I packed the truck tonight with my daughter's stuff to take her to college tomorrow.
 
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