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Wear Metal Max? #5162796 07/16/19 05:54 PM
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tsm750 Offline OP
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Does any of the engine manufacture have a limit on wear metals? The reason I'm asking is: I have a CAT C-15 and my UOA @500 hours had Fe @ 96 PPM and the 1000 hour went to 196PPM. The lab I am using flagged the oil at the 500 hours saying 96 is too high. They are going by average of what they see (which is 20PPM @ 265 hours). The engine has 2500 hours and I am using AMSOIL Signature Series 5-30 (DHD)

Re: Wear Metal Max? [Re: tsm750] #5162861 07/16/19 07:36 PM
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dnewton3 Offline
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Yes, in fact, some do.
download this: https://www2.calrecycle.ca.gov/Publications/Download/874

Cat does not have a limit, but there could be an argument for using 100ppm as a limit for most, regarding Fe.

196ppm Fe seems high and worthy of an OCI.

Are you tracking the Fe as a "rate"? Perhaps sample every 100 hours, and then track the trends.


The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: Wear Metal Max? [Re: tsm750] #5162929 07/16/19 08:46 PM
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I've never understood an iron condemnation limit. It cannot be that the iron showing up in the analysis has "built up" to a dangerous level in the oil since the particles that give an indication on an ICP analysis are generally too small to cause damage. Even if some larger ones show up there's no way the majority are that large.

So what is it then? Is it that the oil is considered "worn out" when enough iron shows up and it needs to be changed to prevent ongoing, accelerated wear due to something other than the iron itself in the oil?

I used to run oil analysis in college for our automotive engineering and fluid power departments. Never did we run the analysis to tell them when to condemn oil due to iron (or any other wear metal for that matter), it was always to help predict impending equipment damage. But even then we needed to do an acid digestion because the large damage inducing particles would elude our analysis if we didn't digest the sample. We'd see numbers in the neighborhood of 1000 ppm on some really bad samples.


1994 BMW 530i, 246K
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Re: Wear Metal Max? [Re: kschachn] #5163024 07/16/19 11:35 PM
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Garak Online Content
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I'm not sure why, either, but the limits are out there for various applications or set by others, sometimes. Doug Hillary was using something like a 150 ppm limit in his regime.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Wear Metal Max? [Re: tsm750] #5163122 07/17/19 06:22 AM
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I assume this is a piece of machinery and not a truck engine, but that's a lot of iron for the number of hours in operation. When I had C15 truck engines, an OCI of 25-30k miles would amount to 450-600 hours and iron was typically around 1 ppm/thousand miles.

I would use the local Cat dealer for analysis and see what they say or at least take what you have to the shop foreman and ask for their thoughts. They'll be very knowledgeable about UOAs (specifically for Cat engines) and should be able to address your concerns. It may be just something loose in the overhead. I doubt it's anything serious but could turn into such if left unchecked.

Even if it were the very first 500 hours from new, I wouldn't expect anything close to that level of iron. If you're not going to get it looked at, switch to a 15W-40 and see what happens. Any other metals running high?

Last edited by dustyroads; 07/17/19 06:26 AM.

2013 F150 XLT 5.0 4X4 115k
Re: Wear Metal Max? [Re: dustyroads] #5163649 07/17/19 05:05 PM
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Garak Online Content
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Originally Posted by dustyroads
I would use the local Cat dealer for analysis and see what they say....

This is probably the best idea so far.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Wear Metal Max? [Re: tsm750] #5164005 07/18/19 05:42 AM
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I think the reason there are condemnation limits is because of the implication of particles larger than what a UOA would see. Understandably, the UOA is only going to see up to (about) 5um in size. But that does not mean there are not particles of Fe or Cu or whatever that are not larger. So the limits set by those OEMs, by my inference, is an implication of the unseen, based on what is seen. While we cannot know how much exists above 5um, it's at least reasonable to believe it quasi-proportional at least to the point where the FF filter would be highly efficient.


The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: Wear Metal Max? [Re: tsm750] #5164267 07/18/19 12:15 PM
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racin4ds Offline
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Switch to a diesel oil with proper viscosity for that engine and I bet it drops. 5W30 just should not be used in a piece of heavy equipment or a HD diesel engine. Its fine for your VW commuter or little Eco Diesel but not this... I don't care what brand it is.


Just say NO to thin oils and M1!
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Re: Wear Metal Max? [Re: tsm750] #5164276 07/18/19 12:23 PM
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Sample taken with engine running ?

Re: Wear Metal Max? [Re: racin4ds] #5164277 07/18/19 12:25 PM
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+1
We run 15w40 in the big CAT’s …

Re: Wear Metal Max? [Re: racin4ds] #5164607 07/18/19 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by racin4ds
Switch to a diesel oil with proper viscosity for that engine and I bet it drops. 5W30 just should not be used in a piece of heavy equipment or a HD diesel engine.

The ACEA, API, Caterpillar, Cummins, DAF, Scania, MB, Mann, Volvo, DD, Deutz, Mack, Renault, and others would disagree with that. The lube I'm running in my G37 is Caterpillar ECF-2/ECF-3, as are most of its competitors.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Wear Metal Max? [Re: tsm750] #5164628 07/18/19 07:40 PM
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What was the soot % and 100c viscosity at 500 and 1000 hours?

Re: Wear Metal Max? [Re: tsm750] #5177923 08/03/19 01:25 AM
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Every engine manufacturer has condemnation limits for wear metals. For my Detroit, and direct from the latest iteration of their lube manual, it is 200 ppm on Fe, and 30 ppm for Pb, Cu, Al, etc. My Detroit 60 just went over 1 million miles. Still all original. As of last sample, Fe was around 16, Pb was at around 6, Al was at 1, Tin 1, etc. So it seems I needn't get worried anytime soon.


Freedom is not about having the choice to do what you want, but the choice to do what you ought.
Re: Wear Metal Max? [Re: racin4ds] #5177925 08/03/19 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by racin4ds
5W30 just should not be used in a piece of heavy equipment or a HD diesel engine. Its fine for your VW commuter or little Eco Diesel but not this... I don't care what brand it is.


Even though 10w30 is the factory fill and recommendation by all the major HD engine manufacturers? Yep, Volvo / Mack, Navistar, Paccar, Detroit, Cummins, etc are all factory filling their 12L - 15L engines with 10w30 and recommending a syn blend 10w30 or full syn 5w30 HDEO CK-4. Some pretty impressive results from what i have seen. I know several fleets and individuals that are using 30w oils as per the OEM recommendation in their heavy diesels and it is working fine.


Freedom is not about having the choice to do what you want, but the choice to do what you ought.
Re: Wear Metal Max? [Re: TiredTrucker] #5178573 08/04/19 05:53 AM
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dnewton3 Offline
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Originally Posted by TiredTrucker
Originally Posted by racin4ds
5W30 just should not be used in a piece of heavy equipment or a HD diesel engine. Its fine for your VW commuter or little Eco Diesel but not this... I don't care what brand it is.


Even though 10w30 is the factory fill and recommendation by all the major HD engine manufacturers? Yep, Volvo / Mack, Navistar, Paccar, Detroit, Cummins, etc are all factory filling their 12L - 15L engines with 10w30 and recommending a syn blend 10w30 or full syn 5w30 HDEO CK-4. Some pretty impressive results from what i have seen. I know several fleets and individuals that are using 30w oils as per the OEM recommendation in their heavy diesels and it is working fine.

Yes, there are some high-quality products from well known companies that specifically market 5w-30 HDEOs for heavy-trucking and off-road ops. They would not do that if there was a concern of engine damage where they would be at risk for warranty claims. Castrol, Schaeffers, Amsoil and others all market 5w-30 HDEOs directly aimed at commercial applications.
https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/AC9000A90EA852B780257A91004742B8/$File/BPXE-8YWF9U.pdf
https://www.schaefferoil.com/documents/315-723-td.pdf
https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g3467.pdf


The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
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