Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 4.7k mi; 6.0L PSD 215k mi

[bismic1]

Oil report attached - just under 215k total miles on the truck (2006 6.0L) and 4700 miles on the oil. (Edit) Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W40 oil (not Mobil 1 TDT 5W40). Interestingly enough (no implication of value, just information sharing) - the viscosity was just below a 40 wt at that mileage (30 wt begins at 68 SUS and mine was 67.6, it started out at 75.5 SUS). Rotella T5 10W30 starts out at 66.13 SUS). No additives, and no detectable fuel in oil.

 

[Bighorn2500]

Potassium seems high?

 

[bismic1]

20k miles ago I added Archoil 9100 and then again 15k miles ago. It went to 1767 ppm! It is "working its way down"!

There is a fair amount of oil left in the system at each oil change w/ these 6.0L's!

 

[bismic1]

Same story w/ the Boron, but to a lesser degree (a little elevated due to the Archoil).

btw - original injectors, no stiction experienced.

My Virgin UOA for Delvac 1 ESP shows the following:
Potassium - 0
Boron - 96
Silicon - 3
Sodium - 3
Calcium - 1258
Magnesium - 929
Phosphorous - 1100
Zinc - 1287

 

[mattd]

Looks good to me. Bismic, you over on PSN?

 

[bismic1]

Yes, that's me! "matthewd11" I am guessing?

 

[bismic1]

I have tried a number of oils over the years. I have done an analysis on EVERY oil change. Only reason - just plain curious!

New truck in 2006. My first 15K miles (after changing out the factory oil) was on Motorcraft 15W40 (at 5k mile Oil change intervals - OCI's). I had good oil reports with that.

Then I tried Schaeffer 9000 for 25k miles at 5k OCI's. Generally had good results, but the lead numbers came up (a few other Schaeffer 9000 users have reported the same thing).

Then I tried Valvoline PBE for 17k miles (generally around 5k mile OCI). My iron levels shot up from under 30 to around 80 ppm.

I then went back to Schaeffer 9000 for 15k miles (again at 5k OCI's). Lead came back up and the iron did not go down.

Then I tried Rotella T6 for 20k miles. Iron MAYBE came down 5 ppm.

Then I went with Mobil TDT with some periodic changes to Mobil Delvac 1 and then back again to the Mobil TDT (I bought a LOT of the Mobil 1 TDT for around $12 per gallon). I have been doing this for around 125k miles with some 5k mile OCI's and some 7.5k mile OCI's. My iron has SLOWLY come down to 26 at approx. 5k mile OCI's (as you can see).

My truck (YMMV) seems to get the best oil analysis results w/ Mobil Delvac 1 ESP ..... and it shears less than most of the others. The exception is the Schaeffer 9000. It sheared at the slowest rate of all of them. The Schaeffer would have had good oil analysis results if it hadn't been for the lead. I did have multiple labs analyze the oil and they both reported the elevated lead.

Over the years I have been challenged to try 10W30 oil. I have considered it, but in all the threads on the internet, it is clear that it shears also! It shears at a slower rate, but shears none the less. I just haven't seen the benefit of trying it yet (since I got a TON of Mobil Delvac 1 ESP and Mobil 1 TDT on sale for $12 a gallon). The data I have seen indicates that the Rotella T5 10W30 shears faster than John Deere Plus 50 10W30, so there are differences in the types/brands of oils. At 7.5k to 10k mile OCI, the Rotella T5 reports that I have seen indicate that it is approaching the viscosity of a 20 wt (I would estimate it to be in the lower third, or even the lower Quartile of the 30 wt range). If I decide to try a 10W30, it would be the John Deere Plus 50. As far as 5W40 shearing, Rotella T6 and Valvoline PBE sheared about the same as each other, and they sheared at a faster rate than any of the other oils I have tried (Motorcraft 15W40, Schaeffer 9000, Mobil 1 TDT, and Mobil Delvac 1 ESP).

Back to my spreadsheet of oil analyses .....I also found that on MY truck, the iron number "PER 1000 MILES" goes up at 7.5k OCI's vs 5k miles.

Just some background on my experimentation .... To put things in perspective, the 6.0L contains about 18 quarts of oil. The average oil change is around 14 quarts. Some do 15 and some do 13 to 13.5. For that reason, I ran a particular brand of oil for at least 4 consecutive oil change intervals to get an idea of what was really happening in my engine.

It takes a LONG time to get meaningful data. Doing it on only a few engines (let alone on only one) is far from being "universally" applicable!

 

[mattd]

Originally Posted by bismic1
Yes, that's me! "matthewd11" I am guessing?


Yup that's me

 

[dnewton3]

Originally Posted by bismic1
It takes a LONG time to get meaningful data. Doing it on only a few engines (let alone on only one) is far from being "universally" applicable!


You might benefit from reading this:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis-how-to-decide-what-is-normal/

If you want to know how the lubes are doing in your one specific application, relative to other lubes, you're no where near close enough in samples.

If you want to know how the vehicle is doing relative to other vehicles, then you may well have enough data for macro analysis.

If you want to send me your data, I'll crunch it down for you. PM me.

 

[bismic1]

Originally Posted by dnewton3
Originally Posted by bismic1
It takes a LONG time to get meaningful data. Doing it on only a few engines (let alone on only one) is far from being "universally" applicable!


You might benefit from reading this:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis-how-to-decide-what-is-normal/

If you want to know how the lubes are doing in your one specific application, relative to other lubes, you're no where near close enough in samples.

If you want to know how the vehicle is doing relative to other vehicles, then you may well have enough data for macro analysis.

If you want to send me your data, I'll crunch it down for you. PM me.




I totally agree, that I do not have enough samples for an accurate determination .... with one exception. The Schaeffer 9000. Lead increased with it. Lead dropped when changed. Lead increased when I went back to it. Lead again dropped when I changed. The drop was susteined each time I changed the oil (and continued to go lower as the dilution effect of each new oil change dictated - ie the lead was diluted and there was no increase from the engine to offset the dilution). Others have identified the same thing w/ the Schaeffer 9000 oil (and there is certainly no lead it it as a virgin oil). It isn't enough for a statistical evaluation and a technical paper, but it is enough for me.

As far as the iron goes, there are numerous things that can be at play, so I added the statements at the end of my post (I probably needed even more disclaimers!). My intention at the beginning wasn't ever to develop enough data to post a correlation between lubes and engine oil analyses. I still don't consider it as such. Just interesting data.

I would love to send you my data, I can PM you my email address. That said, I am skeptical that much can be conclusively determined. I sometimes used additives and sometimes didn't. I sometimes went to 7500 mile OCI. It is far from "designed experimentation". All I did was to conduct it so that I would get one data point (the fourth) with a minimized impact from the previous oil - since 22% of the old oil is retained. I even had a turbo failure around 200k miles - don't know how hot I got the bearings, but a chunk was missing from the turbine wheel. Mainly curiosity that compelled me to do the analyses. I had no real expectations from it!

Again - I appreciate the offer, will send a PM.

 

[bismic1]

Other things we haven't discussed are sampling and analytical variability. I believe that my sampling technique was pretty consistent. I always sampled AFTER driving more than 20 minutes, so my oil temperatures had stabilized and there was more than enough circulation time. I would always collect the sample after about a quart of oil had already been drained.

As far as analytical variability, there can be sample prep variability, technician related variability, and instrument variability. I have no idea how meticulous Blackstone is. I suspect they are fine for the type of work, but it probably isn't anything real rigorous. Industrially I have been involved in many projects that required investigation into analytical precision and accuracy, and sampling variability studies as well. Some of it involved the burning of used oils in a hazardous liquid incinerator (highly regulated by the EPA). They have serious expectations regarding metals content of the waste fuel.

That said, I will read the article that you provided the link to. I am sure it will be helpful.

Regarding my engine ..... With one engine, there just isn't enough time to develop enough data for establishing firm relationships between lubes and oil contaminants. In 215k miles I have changed the oil 42 times. The iron started to go up on the 15th oil change (third oil change using Valvoline PBE) and only started to come down on the 25th oil change (fourth oil change w/ Mobil 1 TDT). The iron decline has been "generally" steady (nothing dramatic) from that point on - but there were several periodic small spikes upwards in the middle of the last 17 oil analyses. If I were serious about establishing a relationship, I would try Valvoline PBE again. I am not that serious about it!

Lastly - I have quite a bit of six-sigma training and have been involved in maintenance programs that employed used oil analyses. Since I retired, I have had little desire to be that technically oriented. Too much house repair and yard work (and golf) for that!!

Oh - and throw in a lot of Ford 6.0L general maintenance and various repair work on top of that, lol!

 

[bismic1]

Just read the article. It was very interesting and I appreciate the link.

Couple of comments. When you know the amount of residual oil contained in the engine, and you know the amount of iron in the virgin oil (essentially zero), then you can easily calculate the impact of the residual oil on the metal contaminant levels to start with.

Also, I have always been told that you can't exclude data for being a "flier" unless you KNOW what caused the "anomaly". That said, I personally agree w/ you in that excluding data that was clearly due to an abnormal cause is probably beneficial.

Lastly - the need for 30 data points is to reach a very, very high level of confidence. In situations where the consequence of a decision is very high, you need that level of confidence. In a single owners evaluation as mine is, I contend that a relationship can be established at a "reasonable" degree of confidence with less data. I do agree that 4 consecutive runs is not enough, but it can show a trend that could be used for further "designed experiments". I would prefer 7 consecutive data points for each oil, but I just didn't think I would have enough time with this truck to try very many oils, and when the iron went up to 80 ppm (4 increasing iron numbers in a row) I decided that I had had enough with that oil.

 

[bismic1]

I'll see if I can attach a graphical representation of the data (by oil type). The data is "Iron wear rate: ppm per 1k miles".
Also the data has been adjusted to remove the residual iron from the previous oil change.

The data is sequential until the Mobil 1 TDT and Delvac 1 ESP results. I intermixed those more than I probably should have!

The drop in iron seems to be immediate after switching to Mobil 1 TDT and the trend is sustained (or even less) with the Delvac 1 ESP.

Again - I realize it is NOT ENOUGH DATA, but even in statistics trends are worth noting!

 

[JAG]

Interesting. The trends are easy to spot. I am quite surprised by them.

 

[bismic1]

I must admit I really want to see the trends ...... lol.

That said, it may just be that the engine is wearing in nicely over time (but I sure would have expected to see that MUCH earlier). Even so, SOMETHING CLEARLY HAPPENED when I started running the Valvoline PBE. It may be oil related or it may not be. If I had any guts, I would run it again. I am not that brave yet, lol.

I posted earlier that I "intermixed" the TDT and ESP results.

Attached is a sequential chart w/ the TDT and ESP identified.

I must admit that I "parsed" one ESP data point. My analysis came back with high aluminum (almost double) and iron apprx. 40% higher - no identifiable explanation. On the very next sample, both metals were back to the range of the lowest that I have ever seen. Right or wrong, I have excluded that data point. The iron would have been 8.8 ppm per 1k miles (not bad, but not what was expected). I will run 4-5 more consecutive analyses of ESP to see if the spike repeats itself. As of now, I choose to leave it out.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted by bismic1
Oil report attached - just under 215k total miles on the truck (2006 6.0L) and 4700 miles on the oil. (Edit) Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W40 oil (not Mobil 1 TDT 5W40). Interestingly enough (no implication of value, just information sharing) - the viscosity was just below a 40 wt at that mileage (30 wt begins at 68 SUS and mine was 67.6, it started out at 75.5 SUS). Rotella T5 10W30 starts out at 66.13 SUS). No additives, and no detectable fuel in oil.


You're in Texas, perhaps you should just run a good semi-synthetic 15w40.
Your change intervals are not long enough to justify a full synthetic.
You have sheared a full synthetic 5w40 to a 30-weight.
I think Kendal Super-D XA with Ti in 15w40 flavor would be interesting to try. It has a very stout additive package.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted by bismic1
I must admit I really want to see the trends ...... lol.

That said, it may just be that the engine is wearing in nicely over time (but I sure would have expected to see that MUCH earlier). Even so, SOMETHING CLEARLY HAPPENED when I started running the Valvoline PBE. It may be oil related or it may not be. If I had any guts, I would run it again. I am not that brave yet, lol.

I posted earlier that I "intermixed" the TDT and ESP results.

Attached is a sequential chart w/ the TDT and ESP identified.

I must admit that I "parsed" one ESP data point. My analysis came back with high aluminum (almost double) and iron apprx. 40% higher - no identifiable explanation. On the very next sample, both metals were back to the range of the lowest that I have ever seen. Right or wrong, I have excluded that data point. The iron would have been 8.8 ppm per 1k miles (not bad, but not what was expected). I will run 4-5 more consecutive analyses of ESP to see if the spike repeats itself. As of now, I choose to leave it out.


I think your statement about the engine wearing in nicely over time could be true, but maybe the engine is still wearing in. I think my Cummins didn't finish breaking in until 235k miles. Maybe what you saw with the VPBE was chelation, and would have settled out had you kept using it.

 

[bismic1]

Originally Posted by A_Harman
Originally Posted by bismic1
Oil report attached - just under 215k total miles on the truck (2006 6.0L) and 4700 miles on the oil. (Edit) Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W40 oil (not Mobil 1 TDT 5W40). Interestingly enough (no implication of value, just information sharing) - the viscosity was just below a 40 wt at that mileage (30 wt begins at 68 SUS and mine was 67.6, it started out at 75.5 SUS). Rotella T5 10W30 starts out at 66.13 SUS). No additives, and no detectable fuel in oil.


You're in Texas, perhaps you should just run a good semi-synthetic 15w40.
Your change intervals are not long enough to justify a full synthetic.
You have sheared a full synthetic 5w40 to a 30-weight.
I think Kendal Super-D XA with Ti in 15w40 flavor would be interesting to try. It has a very stout additive package.


A lot of folks run 10W30's in these engines - even in hot weather (and when towing) and do fine with it. Besides that, even the 10W30 and 15W40 oils shear.

This oil has only sheared to the top of the 30 wt range at essentially 5k miles. Even at that, it is still above the viscosity that most (maybe all) of the 30 wt oils start with. They start out at apprx. 12 cSt. I have (past 4 oil changes) been running this oil to 7500 miles and even at 7500 miles I am only slightly below what the 30 wt oils start out at ...... my data is between 11.8 to 11.9 cSt. I don't doubt that it could run to 10k miles and still be in the mid 30 wt range.

I ran 15W40 for 4 oil changes and it sheared to a 12.5 cSt. Not much different than the 12.3 cSt that I am getting with the synthetic Mobil oils.

Viscosity is not really a big issue anyway. In the reasonable range (say mid 30 wt to a 40 wt), viscosity really doesn't relate to wear metal performance anyway.

I ran my last OCI at 4.7k miles just because the last iron I got at 7500 mile OCI was in the mid 40's (one was at 50) and it was higher than I wanted to see. I then looked at it in "ppm per 1000 miles" and I am happy with it at 5.5 ppm per 1000 miles. So I will be return to running the future OCI at 7.5k miles.

All that said, the big reason for running this oil is that I got a TON of the ESP and TDT on sale for $12 to $15 a gallon. Not going to do much better w/ a 15W40.

 

[bismic1]

I suspect you are right that it would have settled out and started to come back down. Might try it again when my inventory of the Exxon-Mobil oil runs out. The way I drive now that I am retired, it will be 4-5 more years! Might have a new truck by then .....

I will have to look into the Kendal Super-D XA with Ti oil! I have a 7.3L also (no stiction worries w/ it).

 

[bismic1]

Attached is my oil analysis after 5241 miles. 220k miles on the truck. My oil is Mobil Delvac 1 (5W40), but the previous oil I used was Mobil 1 TDT (5W40).

Had mostly short trips on this oil change since I no longer have a daily 40 mile drive (round trip). Still very pleased with the Mobil oils.