BMW CEO steps away after market loss

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Originally Posted by 4WD
In fairness … if another car maker came out with this dash … the internet howler monkies would erupt



That's our car... Simply gorgeous.
This car is different, no doubt.
It is the future; so far advanced from anything else out there.
Other electrics are pretty much today's cars with electric drivetrains.
The Model 3 is so much more than just electric.
 
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Originally Posted by MaximaGuy
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl

I can't tell if you're being serious. The "success" of Tesla is the result of command-style economic planning. What I mean by this is that the company would've folded if it weren't for the plethora of tax credits (Tesla and consumer) in addition to govt decrees regarding vehicle emissions. Tesla also has the luxury of being insulated from shareholders for years of under-performance. They were TBTF the day they launched. The other automakers do not have that luxury. For example the German govt has spent millions of dollars on EV development/consumer subsidies. They're forcing its domestic companies to change while simultaneously trying to keep them from having mass layoffs. Also Tesla serves the very tiny market of urban commuters who have two-car garages.


Give me a freaking break - are u drunk. American auto makers have been saved over the years due to oil regulation time and again over and over.
Why should a 6000 lb truck be written off in the first year from a depreciation stdpt (this is a law because oil oil and auto and road companies).
Tesla get credits because it is doing something good - what have the others done, we have bankrolled those basstards from going in and out of bankruptcy.
Have you wondered why GM has so many divisions making the same darn SUV and rebranding it



Actually you're arguing about an indirect vis direct subsidies. Tesla subsidies are direct. By any measure their doors should be closed. Musk has known this for years. In any case you have tens of thousands if not millions of people who are employed in the automotive industry. You can't dismantle that structure overnight. For example Germany has promised benefits to pensioners. How are they going to fulfill that promise when a chunk of their workforce has been laid off? Are they going to get the ECB to start printing Euros to cover those commitments? Perhaps BMW will not have any lay offs and they'll just follow Tesla's lead by having people in tents outside their factory banging on sheet metal in order to get it to fit on a vehicle.



FWIW the auto industry was bailed out by Harvey Firestone. I'll let you figure out why.
 
Originally Posted by MaximaGuy
Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by MaximaGuy
Once Tesla hits the diesel segment everything is over (big rigs).
This will not happen in my lifetime or yours. In addition to the range being too short to be practical for over-the-road big rigs (unless it is hauling a load of goose down), the purchase price would be so high that it's owner would never turn a profit.
There was a study done by Trucking Association which said a large percentage of freight was within 500 miles. There is money to be made here else Tesla wouldn't be here.
Diesels will never ever go away but in our lifetimes 50% of all auto (in America if the legislation supports such a cause when most policy makers are on oil payroll) being electric is achievable.
RE EV big rig trucks; For the foreseeable future, the physics and economics don't work. It would take a battery bank larger than 2700 kWh to power a 40 ton truck for 500 miles, which, combined with the other heavy duty electrical components, would make the purchase price of the truck over $1,000,000. Then there is the cost of charging the huge battery bank, where it can be charged (infrastructure), as well as the amount of time it would take to do it (financially, down time is a killer on big rigs).
The only thing that makes sense when it comes to big rig trucks is hybrid technology, and several manufacturers are working hard on this, including Tesla.
 
Originally Posted by edyvw

The fact that people here are invoking F35 and comparing to Tesla is ridiculous. Precisely because of memory work, a lot fo systems in cockpit are still good ole fashioned manual switches etc. even in F35. Whenever someone comes with "bright" idea to replace some fundamental operation with touch screen, it is usually addressed later and replaced again with good ole switch.



The actual guy invoking the comparison (Sandy Munro) is qualified to make it- you, quite simply - are not.

Take some time to learn about what you speak.

Sandy goes into explicit detail about the battery architecture , motors, control systems and explains n detail why tesla is killing everyone.

I think his detailed report on every nut bolt wire sells for like 100K to auto-manufacturer wanting to know exactly what they are up against.

UD
 
Go buy one … but it floods all the time in places I live and go for recreation …
You may even have noticed we have large cities that flood …
I recently asked if they are waterproof since all the smartphone analogies
Are they ?
 
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl


I can't tell if you're being serious. The "success" of Tesla is the result of command-style economic planning. What I mean by this is that the company would've folded if it weren't for the plethora of tax credits (Tesla and consumer) in addition to govt decrees regarding vehicle emissions. Tesla also has the luxury of being insulated from shareholders for years of under-performance. They were TBTF the day they launched. The other automakers do not have that luxury. For example the German govt has spent millions of dollars on EV development/consumer subsidies. They're forcing its domestic companies to change while simultaneously trying to keep them from having mass layoffs. Also Tesla serves the very tiny market of urban commuters who have two-car garages.


Every electric car gets the same credits. Including BMW, they just didn't build an electric anyone wanted in the US.
Volts, Bolts, everything get its - its not unique to Tesla.

Every automaker gets the same state and tax credits when they build a plant.

NO auto maker has stood on their own completely - none.

Automakers have been given huge loans, bailouts, and gone through bankruptcies and foreign ones have been subsidized by their respective states.

Tesla is not a niche player for city use only anymore the car is the number one seller one the segment.
They are the smallest manufacturer, but selling at triple digit growth unlike any other manufacturer.

The German government should get its money back - after all the waiting and hype - the audi has 1/3 less range than the tesla with the same size battery.

It doesn't perform as well as a 12 year old model S.

UD
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
[
1. Tesla never intended to be hybrid because they would crash and burn.
2. As for control system, I am familiar of F35 control system, and would not like anything like that to have to deal with in traffic. There is a reason why that control system is on the aircraft.
Again, confirmation that people who are buying Tesla are obsessed with entertainment and video games.



on #2 - Why would I or anyone here believe anything you say vs what Sandy Munro says?



UD
 
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-electronics-f35-flight-controller/

[Linked Image]



PLEASE tell us why Sandy is wrong and you are right.

Preferably with some actual data or information that isn't merely your opinion, but some credible 3rd party.



UD
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl


I can't tell if you're being serious. The "success" of Tesla is the result of command-style economic planning. What I mean by this is that the company would've folded if it weren't for the plethora of tax credits (Tesla and consumer) in addition to govt decrees regarding vehicle emissions. Tesla also has the luxury of being insulated from shareholders for years of under-performance. They were TBTF the day they launched. The other automakers do not have that luxury. For example the German govt has spent millions of dollars on EV development/consumer subsidies. They're forcing its domestic companies to change while simultaneously trying to keep them from having mass layoffs. Also Tesla serves the very tiny market of urban commuters who have two-car garages.


Every electric car gets the same credits. Including BMW, they just didn't build an electric anyone wanted in the US.
Volts, Bolts, everything get its - its not unique to Tesla.

Every automaker gets the same state and tax credits when they build a plant.

NO auto maker has stood on their own completely - none.

Automakers have been given huge loans, bailouts, and gone through bankruptcies and foreign ones have been subsidized by their respective states.

Tesla is not a niche player for city use only anymore the car is the number one seller one the segment.
They are the smallest manufacturer, but selling at triple digit growth unlike any other manufacturer.

The German government should get its money back - after all the waiting and hype - the audi has 1/3 less range than the tesla with the same size battery.

It doesn't perform as well as a 12 year old model S.

UD




No, not every EV gets the same credit. Some credits are larger than others.

As I've stated before the fact remains that all automakers have to make a profit EXCEPT for Tesla. BMW et al could of course build a Model S killer but they still have to show a profit.

Tesla can make what it wants because investors/shareholders have yet to demand that the company earn a consistent profit. It's really that simple.

Tesla is completely unhinged judging from turnover in senior leadership positions and Elon's volatile behavior with employees. People only work there because it boosts their resume.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl


No, not every EV gets the same credit. Some credits are larger than others.

As I've stated before the fact remains that all automakers have to make a profit EXCEPT for Tesla. BMW et al could of course build a Model S killer but they still have to show a profit.

Tesla can make what it wants because investors/shareholders have yet to demand that the company earn a consistent profit. It's really that simple.

Tesla is completely unhinged judging from turnover in senior leadership positions and Elon's volatile behavior with employees. People only work there because it boosts their resume.




Credits all start the same on like designs and phase out as volume is met making them differently sized after time. Tesla has simply sold enough cars for the rate to drop.

Based on huge bailouts, giant loans that are still due, and bankruptcies all automakers do NOT have to make profits - they send the bills for their mismanagement to the taxpayers.

You are correct- tesla maintain a very high stock price because people that have invested believe it will be viable. They either tolerate what happens or not - so far they do. No different than any in that regard.

on unhinged - No one from Tesla is going to jail for cheating- unlike the VW group.
Yes, Telsa turns over a lot but amazingly Elon is the most tenured CEO/leader in the business today.
 
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Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl


No, not every EV gets the same credit. Some credits are larger than others.

As I've stated before the fact remains that all automakers have to make a profit EXCEPT for Tesla. BMW et al could of course build a Model S killer but they still have to show a profit.

Tesla can make what it wants because investors/shareholders have yet to demand that the company earn a consistent profit. It's really that simple.

Tesla is completely unhinged judging from turnover in senior leadership positions and Elon's volatile behavior with employees. People only work there because it boosts their resume.




Credits all start the same on like designs and phase out as volume is met making them differently sized after time. Tesla has simply sold enough cars for the rate to drop.

Based on huge bailouts, giant loans that are still due, and bankruptcies all automakers do NOT have to make profits - they send the bills for their mismanagement to the taxpayers.

You are correct- tesla maintain a very high stock price because people that have invested believe it will be viable.they eiothe rtolerate what happens or not - so far they do. No different than any in that regard.

on unhinged - No one from Tesla is going to jail for cheating- unlike the VW group.
Yes, Telsa turns over a lot but amazingly Elon is the most tenured CEO/leader in the business today.






Dave,

Keep on drinking that Tesla Kool-aid. BTW...If true, Elon is only the most tenured CEO because of how he structured the company. The metric means nothing however fox watching the hen house comes to mind.
 
I've been listening to people tell me its "this or that" for 12 years now - and the data shows they didn't get it right.

I didn't believe he could do it either, but this is the only viable new auto company in our lifetimes.

All metrics have and convey some meaning, even the ones people don't like.

Who else started built and maintained control of an auto company throughout recorded history?

UD
 
Honestly I don't understand people's thinking sometimes. Mostly everyone jumps with joy when a foreign company opens up an assembly plant in US because it creates jobs. Heck, I can see many cheering for the Chinese auto makers once they come over here.

Yet, Tesla employs something like 30k people in US, both in manufacturing, design, engineering, programming etc. We're talking high skill level, well paying jobs, not some assembly line type jobs.

I understand not liking the vehicles or even Musk himself, but this is an American company, providing good jobs and careers for thousands. So why are so many have a hostile attitude towards it?
 
Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by PimTac
Elon May have a visionary mind but his business sense is non existent. The stock shows a P/E ratio of -41.97. Yep, that's negative. At some point the bill comes due and in some cases it has and those companies have turned Elon down.

https://www.cnbc.com/quotes/?symbol=TSLA&qsearchterm=tsla



Yet Tesla is still here?

UD





Until it isn't.


When will that happen?

UD
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Honestly I don't understand people's thinking sometimes. Mostly everyone jumps with joy when a foreign company opens up an assembly plant in US because it creates jobs. Heck, I can see many cheering for the Chinese auto makers once they come over here.

Yet, Tesla employs something like 30k people in US, both in manufacturing, design, engineering, programming etc. We're talking high skill level, well paying jobs, not some assembly line type jobs.

I understand not liking the vehicles or even Musk himself, but this is an American company, providing good jobs and careers for thousands. So why are so many have a hostile attitude towards it?




Yup, and in a time when American manufacturing ran off to mexico - this is to be praised.

Guys run on emotions vs logic when it comes to autos - liking or disliking something for their own reasons not necessarily founded in reality.

When you get the point where your personal "opinion" prevents you from even listening to actual subject experts more qualified than you on a given subject the conversation becomes comical.



UD
 
In all fairness, this is the first auto manufacturer ever started that nobody demanded a profit from more than a decade into operations. It's also the only one that has received this level of corporate welfare and in so many forms. Elon himself has stated that either Tesla or SpaceX would have toppled without the government checks to SpaceX.

Based on that system, any of them could have made it at all.

Elon Musk had the good Fortune of being in the right place at the right time more than anything. A close second is that Musk is a supremely superior marketeer who could put Jim Jones or our President to shame.

But is it because of dollars and cents? Heck no. The math has yet to add up.

This is why no car company can commit like Tesla. Ever since 2008, the pressure has been on every other manufacturer on the market to actually perform. They can't count on a government check to save them (again). They also don't have the investor confidence to operate as what is essentially an Inventor's Park with Tech Showcase.
 
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