1998 Accord v6 trans oil better than dw-1

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Originally Posted by Kira
This is for the 2000 Acura RL I keep going on about.

When the time comes for trannie service would you stick with DW-1 or go for something "better"?
Remember, that car calls for Z-1, not DW-1. People dispute that a more modern fluid, i.e. Valvoline Maxlife, is too thin, but Maxlife is perfectly acceptable to substitute for DW-1. Honda completely replaced Z-1 with DW-1 though saying it's 100% compatible.
 
Dexron and lubegard black or silver are what Lubegard recommends on their chart for this vehicle.

Of course I'm being facetious that this is something special for the car although I'm sure it would work fine.
 
Originally Posted by hallstevenson
Originally Posted by Kira
This is for the 2000 Acura RL I keep going on about. When the time comes for trannie service would you stick with DW-1 or go for something "better"?
Remember, that car calls for Z-1, not DW-1. People dispute that a more modern fluid, i.e. Valvoline Maxlife, is too thin, but Maxlife is perfectly acceptable to substitute for DW-1. Honda completely replaced Z-1 with DW-1 though saying it's 100% compatible.

Around and around we go. Reading between all the lines of many threads, it seems that for many (not all) transmissions, the additive composition and viscosity are not as important as the auto manufacturers suggest. While this thread is mostly talking about additive composition, if I remember correctly, it seems that past threads also dismissed low viscosity vs. high viscosity importance also. At least once, it was said that maybe the lower viscosity was to simply improve mpg a fraction vs. transmission operation and longevity. Someone refresh my memory.
 
Originally Posted by MolaKule
ATF if a special hydraulic oil for the following purposes:
Lubrication for gears.
Cooling and heat transfer.
Transmitting torque via the Torque Converter.
Friction modification for clutch packs, bands, Torque Converter Clutch.

One of its more important duties of ATF is to make sure the fluid's coefficient of friction is matched to the friction materials inside the tranny. I.e., to ensure the proper static and dynamic coefficients of friction during engagement/disengagement.

In the early days of AT's the clutch material was composed of cellulose material with cotton and other soft materials in a phenolic resin binder. Today, hybrid materials are used.

Hybrid (or composite) materials are typically manufactured using a process similar to that used for paper-based materials, but using carbon fibers in combination with organic or synthetic fibers such as Kevlar and Aramid fibers. So Friction Materials may include cellulose, carbon fiber, Aramids, fiberglass, or a combination of materials (composites). Today, composites are the norm.

Many of the clutch materials from various manufacturers are close in terms of static and dynamic friction coefficients.

The clutch disc material of Automatic Transmissions, and other wet clutch applications, are made of porous friction materials which are bonded to steel core plates.

Note: Sintered metal composites may be found in HDD applications.

This material must exhibit:

1.) Mu(o), low speed dynamic coefficient; affected by friction material ingredients and ATF additives adsorption

2.) Mu(i), initial dynamic coefficient at high speed; affected by hydrodynamic effects/porosity/compression/roughness.

When an additive company tests its ATF additive package, many transmissions are run through the SAE2 and other friction test machines (JASO M349-98, R-H Friction Apparatus, ZF GK Test Bench, Low Velocity Friction Apparatus, etc) to determine if the Friction Modifier set is appropriate.

The friction characteristics (Mu verses Velocity) of the clutch/fluid system are carefully monitored for each separate transmission and fluid formulation.

Mu is coefficient of friction plotted on the vertical axis, V is the relative speed of rotating components plotted on the horizontal axis. Mu(v) then is the resulting curve of the frictional characteristics of the clutch/fluid system.

The appropriate FM additive type and levels are then determined for the complete additive package.

A sample of the ATF Friction Modifiers are shown below:

fatty phosphites, fatty acid amides, fatty epoxides, borated fatty epoxides, fatty amines, glycerol esters, borated glycerol esters, alkoxylated fatty amines, and borated alkoxylated fatty amines, metal salts of fatty acids, sulfurized olefins, fatty imidazolines, non-hydroxyl fatty tertiary amines, and any mixtures of the above.

The exact composition of and specific chemistry (molecular structure) of the Friction Modifier(s) are closely guarded secrets.

With the many different chemistries and potential mixes available, I think one can now see why Mutli-Vehicle fluids can be manufactured.

Ford Type "F" ATF is a fluid with very low levels of friction modification and has a Mu(V) curve separate and apart from either the Dexron Series or the Chrysler ATF+ series.

Ford Type "F" ATF is often used today in racing transmissions such as the PowerGlide and TH400 Turbohydramatics because of the positive lockup, IE, little to no slip in the clutch packs during engagement.

Chrysler ATF+ fluids are on the other end of the spectrum and exhibit a completely different Mu(V) characteristic. The ATF+ fluids are highly friction modified.

For a more Technical Study on ATs and heat transfer one can go to:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/automatic-transmissions-study/
 
In about 10 days I will be receiving a detailed analysis of a number of fluids including the Idemitsu type-H and the Honda DW-1.
 
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Originally Posted by MolaKule
In about 10 days I will be receiving a detailed analysis of a number of fluids including the Idemitsu type-H and the Honda DW-1.



Are you going to be able to disclose any interesting findings should there be any?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by ctechbob
Originally Posted by MolaKule
In about 10 days I will be receiving a detailed analysis of a number of fluids including the Idemitsu type-H and the Honda DW-1.



Are you going to be able to disclose any interesting findings should there be any?


There will be a comparison among three fluids.
 
Originally Posted by MolaKule


There will be a comparison among three fluids.


I love MolaKule's insight on gear oil especially synchronized manual transaxle oil. There's almost a mystic quality to that stuff and GL-4 only specs.
 
Just a quick question , when it comes to Hondas of this era what would be the best trans oil to use.
I've been stocking the Aisin DW-1 for a number of years and it seems to keep things happy. This particular car has 180,000kms and this transmission has been serviced every 10k without fail, always gets a dose of lubeguard red as per customer request.

IMG_20190707_121034.jpg
 
There's been a fairly lively discussion regarding the different makes of 'DW1' fluids available including Honda, Idemitsu, and Aisin. Molekule is hopefully going to have some good information on them in the next week or so.

What the VOA's have shown so far is that the Aisin and Idemitsu are similar, but the OEM Honda DW1 is unlike the both of them.

Plenty of people use Maxlife as well. Me, I'm on both sides of the fence. I'm currently using Idemitsu in my V6's and Maxlife in the wife's 2000 I4.
 
Originally Posted by Rolla07
Sounds like DW-1 is working well, keep doing that.


Or the frequent D&Fs.
smile.gif



Originally Posted by anderson
This particular car has 180,000kms and this transmission has been serviced every 10k without fail, always gets a dose of lubeguard red as per customer request.


The OP has been changing the ATF every 10k(6200 miles).
 
Originally Posted by ctechbob
There's been a fairly lively discussion regarding the different makes of 'DW1' fluids available including Honda, Idemitsu, and Aisin. Molekule is hopefully going to have some good information on them in the next week or so.

What the VOA's have shown so far is that the Aisin and Idemitsu are similar, but the OEM Honda DW1 is unlike the both of them.

Plenty of people use Maxlife as well. Me, I'm on both sides of the fence. I'm currently using Idemitsu in my V6's and Maxlife in the wife's 2000 I4.


325K,that's awesome!! How well is it running?
 
I've done two drain and refills on mine using oem DW-1. There was no residue whatsoever on the magnetic drain plugs either time. Was so clean that it looked like a brand new plug.
 
Originally Posted by Rolla07
Sounds like DW-1 is working well, keep doing that.

Just to be clear, the Aisin ATF is not ATF-DW1, only the OEM Honda fluid is. The Aisin ATF is "recommended for" just like everything else except the Honda fluid.
 
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by Rolla07
Sounds like DW-1 is working well, keep doing that.

Just to be clear, the Aisin ATF is not ATF-DW1, only the OEM Honda fluid is. The Aisin ATF is "recommended for" just like everything else except the Honda fluid.


Amen.
 
The local Honda dealer parts department recommended this is what I use and they also keep it in stock.

It seems to work in all the cars I service and it's cheap.
The Beck Arnley z-1 also seems to be OK.

Thanks for the thoughts and opinions.
Originally Posted by atikovi
DO NOT use that motor oil in the Honda automatic transmission.

Who would ?

IMG_20190708_085715.jpg
 
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