Any Known After Market HID or LED Headlight Upgrades that are Good as OEM ?

[meep]

Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
All I can tell you is that with my Rams and Jeep, I could not see the road at all. Went with upgraded halogens, and I couldn't identify any change at all.

With LED bulbs and projectors, I can see everything. I realize that the labs and such would tell me that I now have "bad" lights, but I can actually see stuff now.

I'm not talking about an "improvement". I'm talking about having to use a flashlight out of my window to see people walking their dogs.

I can now see walkers down an entire block.

I did actually try genuine Phillips bulbs in the projectors before going with LED. They had nothing on the LEDs.

I didn't test them on a garage door. I just picked one spot down the block on trash night and checked to see what I could and could not see. There was no ambiguity. There were cans I simply could not see with the halogens.

Glare? Even easier to test. Left the lights on and drove up the block in my lowest car. I could see my lights were on, but beams touched my eyes.

Lab tests are nice, but the real world shows even better how things work out in the real world.


I've seen this with wranglers and even my own F150 new. In my case, and several wranglers, the oem had the light aimed up and spread out, which left the road dark, and with a loose focus couldn't throw any light over a distance. Wranglers are known for having high aim from the factory also. I lowered the beams - significantly (as they actually pointed up above horizontal) and that at least made the vehicle driveable. The glare would have been above oncoming traffic until they got close then it would have been directly in their faces.

In the F150, unfortunately even with the beam lowered, only one hit the pavement as they both pointed to the right. useful light from the passenger side was on the right side curb and to the right. A bulb swap didn't help. And Ford doesn't offer L-R adjustment. And there was no good way to just shim the whole housing.

I wish I would have known about ditching LL bulbs for standard - would have liked to have tried that as a last-ditch effort. I ended up installing D2S projectors into the housings, a massive chore in that complex assembly, but it was a worthwhile effort.

Long story short- some of the oem lamps are poor to begin with, most of the aftermarket stuff is junk, but aiming can certainly help, but in my case, not quite.

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by meep
I ended up installing D2S projectors into the housings, a massive chore in that complex assembly, but it was a worthwhile effort.


I want to retrofit our van with some d2s projectors... with some Osram Nightbreaker lasers and retain the factory halogen high beams, upgraded to h9's of course.... because I need ALL the light!

 

[Deontologist]

Originally Posted by meep
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
All I can tell you is that with my Rams and Jeep, I could not see the road at all. Went with upgraded halogens, and I couldn't identify any change at all.

With LED bulbs and projectors, I can see everything. I realize that the labs and such would tell me that I now have "bad" lights, but I can actually see stuff now.

I'm not talking about an "improvement". I'm talking about having to use a flashlight out of my window to see people walking their dogs.

I can now see walkers down an entire block.

I did actually try genuine Phillips bulbs in the projectors before going with LED. They had nothing on the LEDs.

I didn't test them on a garage door. I just picked one spot down the block on trash night and checked to see what I could and could not see. There was no ambiguity. There were cans I simply could not see with the halogens.

Glare? Even easier to test. Left the lights on and drove up the block in my lowest car. I could see my lights were on, but beams touched my eyes.

Lab tests are nice, but the real world shows even better how things work out in the real world.


I've seen this with wranglers and even my own F150 new. In my case, and several wranglers, the oem had the light aimed up and spread out, which left the road dark, and with a loose focus couldn't throw any light over a distance. Wranglers are known for having high aim from the factory also. I lowered the beams - significantly (as they actually pointed up above horizontal) and that at least made the vehicle driveable. The glare would have been above oncoming traffic until they got close then it would have been directly in their faces.

In the F150, unfortunately even with the beam lowered, only one hit the pavement as they both pointed to the right. useful light from the passenger side was on the right side curb and to the right. A bulb swap didn't help. And Ford doesn't offer L-R adjustment. And there was no good way to just shim the whole housing.

I wish I would have known about ditching LL bulbs for standard - would have liked to have tried that as a last-ditch effort. I ended up installing D2S projectors into the housings, a massive chore in that complex assembly, but it was a worthwhile effort.

Long story short- some of the oem lamps are poor to begin with, most of the aftermarket stuff is junk, but aiming can certainly help, but in my case, not quite.


You are absolutely correct, many OEM setups are simply inadequate no matter what you do with them. The Chevy Tahoes are one prime example. Optics are way, way too small on those trucks to be useful. The Chevy's lights were designed by a group called Guide Light, and their only goal was to make cheaper and cheaper but still legal lights, and they definitely succeeded in making perhaps the cheapest and legal lights of that time.

Ford's new F-150 with the LEDs today is still a mess. Too much glare, and inadequate sight distance. People get the privilege of paying thousands for an "upgrade" package and get worse lights. Ford has never really gave too much of a (...) with regard to lighting.

I can't really fault you for retrofitting a projector. At least it's better than slapping on a few light bars.

 

[meep]

^^^ thanks - I really didn't want to tear in to a new vehicle for this, but the oems sound on par with the Guide Lights you mentioned above - they are also pretty tiny units in a highly stylized housing.

I'm surprised the LEDs are bad. or maybe disappointed. Those are expensive! I actually considered just buying them from the parts counter and installing them myself. The only reason I didn't was the HID lets me choose a lower color temp (4100k or so in mine) whereas the LEDs are that 6500k blue which is fatiguing to me for long night drives. I didn't want 6500k. I'm sure glad, reading what you said, that I didn't buy the oem LEDs and retrofit them in.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

Originally Posted by LoneRanger
I've no doubt there are after market options for LED or HID's but just how good are they, in general? Is there a particular brand name after market that is high quality and equivalent in function to factory equipped OEM setups?




My mechanic swears that all the radio static on my AM Radio Stations when I brake, is caused by replacement LED bulbs in front and in the rear. This involves both of my Chevys in my Signature.
I think the Old Phart was correct all-along. Now I have learned to sing listening to FM music stations, instead of AM Sports Talk and Local News. I may cut an album someday.
Wanna' hear me sing?

 

[Deontologist]

Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en

My mechanic swears that all the radio static on my AM Radio Stations when I brake, is caused by replacement LED bulbs in front and in the rear. This involves both of my Chevys in my Signature.
I think the Old Phart was correct all-along. Now I have learned to sing listening to FM music stations, instead of AM Sports Talk and Local News. I may cut an album someday.
Wanna' hear me sing?


At least your car didn't have electronic power steering that went bonkers with the unshielded LEDs. There are many reports of Lexuses and other cars throwing error codes with HID ballasts. A few people driving Lexuses said the steering wheel grew a mind of its own and would violently turn, almost ripping their arm off.

Anyway, I ordered some Diode Dynamics LEDs the other day since I've known about them (and Paul) for many years now, being a member of the online retrofit communities. I've always ordered retrofit products that seem interesting out of curiosity, but none of them ever really impressed me. The DD LEDs came in today, and straight out the box, they didn't even fit my headlamp. I had to remove the o-ring on the LED to make it fit. And then when I plugged it all up, one of them wouldn't even light up straight out the box

. This will probably be the first and last product I order from Paul. Maybe he sent me a bad copy to spite me

.

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by Deontologist
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en

My mechanic swears that all the radio static on my AM Radio Stations when I brake, is caused by replacement LED bulbs in front and in the rear. This involves both of my Chevys in my Signature.
I think the Old Phart was correct all-along. Now I have learned to sing listening to FM music stations, instead of AM Sports Talk and Local News. I may cut an album someday.
Wanna' hear me sing?


At least your car didn't have electronic power steering that went bonkers with the unshielded LEDs. There are many reports of Lexuses and other cars throwing error codes with HID ballasts. A few people driving Lexuses said the steering wheel grew a mind of its own and would violently turn, almost ripping their arm off.

Anyway, I ordered some Diode Dynamics LEDs the other day since I've known about them (and Paul) for many years now, being a member of the online retrofit communities. I've always ordered retrofit products that seem interesting out of curiosity, but none of them ever really impressed me. The DD LEDs came in today, and straight out the box, they didn't even fit my headlamp. I had to remove the o-ring on the LED to make it fit. And then when I plugged it all up, one of them wouldn't even light up straight out the box

. This will probably be the first and last product I order from Paul. Maybe he sent me a bad copy to spite me

.


Did you try reversing your connector? One of mine did that, just spun the plug 180° and it fired right up.

 

[Deontologist]

Yeah, diodes are directional. I tried that. Didn't work.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Quote
. Many times when I oversaw headlamp development, entire designs had to be scrapped and reworked because modern cars pretty much dictate sharply sloped, aerodynamic headlamp lenses. These lenses, even when put in front of a good projector, can create unwanted reflections that cause the entire headlamp to fail government standards with regard to visibility and glare.


What does any of this have to do with replacing a halogen projector bulb with an LED one? If a housing fails to manage light, LED or halogen will make no difference.

If a housing passes, it won't have a problem with either.

Quote
. Humans can be pretty bad when it comes to perceiving things accurately, even when it comes to basic things such as proper headlamp use:

https://www.iihs.org/api/datastoredocument/bibliography/2129


You are aware that our entire civilization is based on human eyesight right? Even the very studies you posted were made using human eyesight.

Nothing you posted eliminated the simple fact that there is a HUGE difference between a sober person and a drunk.

Quote
. What's wrong with HIDs or LEDs in reflector housings? Lexus made thousands of vehicles with HIDs in reflectors. The 2018 Accord uses LEDs in reflector housings. 2020 RAV4 has LEDs in reflector housings. Please educate yourself with regard to legitimate vehicle lighting. It would contribute to a useful discussion.


Please educate yourself on the English language and reading comprehension. I specifically wrote KITS. None of the vehicles you mentioned use an HID or LED KIT. Those are factory installs developed as a system.

Quote
. Philips halogens vary wildly in quality, with some aimed toward people who want their car to look "cooler" to others who want all-out seeing performance. I don't know what you used, and often times, it's not just the bulb that needs to be tossed or upgraded, but also the entire headlamp. Headlamps are not designed to last forever, as they are attacked constantly by UV exposure, heat exposure, water exposure, etc, and all this degrades performance, often to the point where simply a new bulb won't do any good. Not to mention things outside of the headlamp, such as degraded or substandard wiring from the factory that doesn't provide enough voltage to the lamps.


Brand new headlamp assemblies, no voltage drop at the connector.

Halogen is an old technology with no present or future innovations or development in any industry at all anymore. In anything from street lighting, to home lighting, to aviation, halogen is a dead duck.

Quote
. .There's nothing inherently wrong with an HID in a reflector housing. This is a very common misunderstanding I run across online when discussing headlamps. It's also a basic misunderstanding.


There are plenty of things wrong with an HID kit in a reflector, as I previously mentioned and you previously failed to grasp. That is the only misunderstanding here.

Quote
. Just because you can't find it doesn't make it false.

https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2009-01-0336/


There's no information there that an LED converted projector suffers from this issue.

It is still opinion anyway that foreground lighting is not important. Driving at slower speeds through a neighborhood at night is one time that foreground lighting matters. Driving in the rain where the refector strips are worn and hard to see is another. Especially through construction zones with tight and sharp chicanes.

Quote
. Projectors are not necessarily great at controlling light. A cutoff is no indication of good light control. People fail to realize that the cutoff shield in a projector is not the only thing affecting the beam pattern in a projector. Projectors are almost invariably made by legitimate OEM suppliers with diffused lenses (often with a Fresnel pattern). The lenses do not simply let light pass through. The lenses are almost always designed to influence the beam pattern, and this can cause problems when the wrong type of light source is used (i.e. HID in a halogen housing).


I'm not seeing any information here that this situation is common at all. I've never encountered this from any of the factory or aftermarket projectors I have ever used.

Quote
. Have the human perception pathways changed significantly from 2003 to 2019? Did our eyes and sensory mechanisms evolve in that timeframe?


The opinions that study is based on likely have, as well as the opinionated conclusions.

The insinuation that good foreground lighting has a negative impact? Nearly died laughing.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted by KrisZ
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp

Lab tests are nice, but the real world shows even better how things work out in the real world.


I don't know about that. People that bought HID retrofit kits also perceived the improvement. If one spends time to do research and then buy one of these things, it is very likely they will see what they want to see, even if objective studies say otherwise.
So while I don't doubt your claims that you can see better sitting behind these light, I highly doubt the glare is not a problem. After all, that better and further visibility has to come at an expense of extra light being scattered, if the headlight housing stayed the same.


There's nothing "perceived". I know the difference between something being completely shrouded in darkness, and something having light hitting it.

Projectors are ridiculously good at light management. Intensity has improved in the area under the cutoff, but not at all above it. Again, it's not a hard thing to test. I know the difference between light glaring in my eyes or not.

After all, in the field of use and the function of use, the human eye is really the only thing that matters. There's no laboratory equipment riding around in the driver's seat. Whether from vehicle emitting, or vehicle receiving light, it's all going to come down to what the human eye sees. A complaintant of glare is not doing so based on lab equipment, and a person who can't see at night is not basing their lack of visibility on lab equipment.

Lab equipment is good for developing solutions that will ultimately work for the human eyes, but the human eye is the ultimate consumer that it must satisfy.


Everything you just described is perceived by you. Like mentioned already, there us nothing wrong with reflector headlamps and projector headlamps also require a specific light source. Both can be designed to work well with any light sourse.

You say you see further with LEDs than halogens despite the cut off being the same. I don't doubt that, but where do you think that extra light is coming from? It is the extra scattered light and it will cause extra glare to others. So you may feel good about your LED retrofit because you can see more, others sharing the road will not appreciate it, guaranteed.


It's quite amusing how HID kits are almost universally seen as super bad on this site and people using them are selfish jerks, but this new LED fad is fine and dandy.





Again, please go back and read where I specifically stated the use of KITS in reflector housings.

I'm just going to point out the irony that two people in this thread who are arguing the whole "human perception" thing both failed to read the word "kits" in order to see what they wanted to see.

You are offering a guarantee on a set of lights you have never seen in person?

So let me get this straight: I, the person who has observed these lights for hours at a time cannot properly perceive their performance, but you can properly perceive their performance by reading about them on the internet?

Holy Hades.

I suppose you never stopped to consider that maybe, just maybe a brighter light travels further under the area which it is emitted, and does not necessarily have to travel further upward to have greater reach? Yeah, it's a thing.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted by SubLGT
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
...Glare? Even easier to test. Left the lights on and drove up the block in my lowest car. I could see my lights were on, but beams touched my eyes.

Lab tests are nice, but the real world shows even better how things work out in the real world.


In the real world, a lot of people (especially those over 50) would perceive your LED bulbs to have too much glare, even though you do not.


I'm the real world, somebody (especially people over 50) are going to have a bug up their backside no matter what is on the front of my trucks. I get more complaints about my truck even existing at all than I do anything else.

Seems most people over 50 feel I don't need it.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted by DoubleWasp

Again, please go back and read where I specifically stated the use of KITS in reflector housings.

I'm just going to point out the irony that two people in this thread who are arguing the whole "human perception" thing both failed to read the word "kits" in order to see what they wanted to see.

You are offering a guarantee on a set of lights you have never seen in person?

So let me get this straight: I, the person who has observed these lights for hours at a time cannot properly perceive their performance, but you can properly perceive their performance by reading about them on the internet?

Holy Hades.

I suppose you never stopped to consider that maybe, just maybe a brighter light travels further under the area which it is emitted, and does not necessarily have to travel further upward to have greater reach? Yeah, it's a thing.


Whether you use a kit in a reflector or a projector housing, or you just slap an aftermarket LED bulb, doesn't matter because the housing was not designed for the LED light source. That's the argument.

Your argument that there is a problem with reflector housings, but the projector housings are "ridiculously good" is simply ridiculous.

You last argument about brightness, which I think you mean intensity, is a real gem. There is a reason headlight output intensity is regulated, and that is to avoid blinding others on the road.
Its been pointed out already by Deontologist that the cut off is not the only thing that determines glare.

As I said before, if you see that much further ahead with just a bulb change and nothing else, it means you are blinding others. Great for you, not great for everybody else that has to deal with your "upgrade".

 

[mattd]

https://retro-solutions.net/index.php

Love these. Have a set of HID fog lights and headlights in my truck. Made a world of difference on dark road driving. Have had them on other vehicles in the past as well.

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by mattd
https://retro-solutions.net/index.php

Love these. Have a set of HID fog lights and headlights in my truck. Made a world of difference on dark road driving. Have had them on other vehicles in the past as well.


Please tell me you retrofitted in projectors.

 

[Deontologist]

Originally Posted by DoubleWasp

Projectors are ridiculously good at light management. Intensity has improved in the area under the cutoff, but not at all above it. Again, it's not a hard thing to test. I know the difference between light glaring in my eyes or not.


Projectors being "ridiculously good" at light management is directly contrary to what this study found. Intensity being "improved in the area under the cutoff, but not at all above it" is patently wrong.

I read the entire paper, and 9/9 of tested aftermarket LED kits/bulbs failed both glare and downroad visibility tests. The authors tested the 9 LEDs in both reflectors and projectors. In the projector, 5/9 of the LEDs created excessive glare. 1/9 LED didn't physically fit in the projector. 1/9 LED didn't light up the projector correctly enough for the test equipment to pick up a beam pattern. 2/9 LEDs did not exceed the glare threshold, so that's a good start. But 9/9 of the LEDs failed to produce enough light at photometric test point 1.5D, 2R. 9/9 LEDs produced less light than the halogen bulb they replaced at that critical test point.

https://saemobilus.sae.org/content/2019-01-0850/#abstract

Image of the tested LED bulbs if you don't have access. As you can see, these are very, very common looking LEDs. They all look like stuff you can easily buy off Amazon right at this moment.

https://imgur.com/a/nwb5POR


Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
It is still opinion anyway that foreground lighting is not important. Driving at slower speeds through a neighborhood at night is one time that foreground lighting matters. Driving in the rain where the refector strips are worn and hard to see is another. Especially through construction zones with tight and sharp chicanes.

The insinuation that good foreground lighting has a negative impact? Nearly died laughing.


https://saemobilus.sae.org/content/2009-01-0336/#abstract

Quote
The results suggest that high foreground illumination levels have a negative or at best, a negligible, influence on visual detection of potential hazards, while conveying a sense of improved lighting quality.


Let's do some basic math, as I prefer to deal with facts and figures, not subjective impressions.

Foreground illumination, in the literature, has been defined as light in the area 10 to 26 feet in front of your car. The literature also says that the average driver's reaction time (remove foot from accelerator and apply brake) is 2.3 seconds. Let's just say it's 2 seconds for simplicity's sake.

At 20 MPH, you are going 30 feet per second. In the 2 seconds it takes for you to react, you've already traveled 60 feet. Being able to see what's 10 to 26 feet in front of your car won't help if you've already traveled 60 feet before you can even push the brake pedal. So yes, foreground illumination is quite useless, unless you are regularly traveling at 5 MPH through neighborhoods and construction zones (7 feet/second, so 14 feet traveled by the time you hit the brakes).

----

And just to clarify, I'm not retracting my analogy between randomly plugging in LEDs into halogen headlamps and drunk driving. Both are deliberate choices with possibly dire outcomes.

As the scientific study shows, commonly available LEDs from Amazon have been proven to create excessive glare in projectors. If someone buys one of those LEDs and slaps it in a projector, he can negatively impact other drivers through glare. Glare can be dangerous, and I think we can all agree on that point

. And the study explictly shows that LEDs can create excessive glare even in projectors. Let's find some common ground, shall we?

One day, when SAE J3145 is finalized, then I'll soften my stance regarding LEDs in halogen housings.

https://www.sae.org/works/documentH...docID=J3145&inputPage=wIpSdOcDeTaIlS

 

[Dave9]

Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
The insinuation that good foreground lighting has a negative impact? Nearly died laughing.


It's true. The more foreground light you get reflected back at the human eye, the more the sensitivity to light decreases. This directly affects your ability to perceive distant objects with lower light reflection.

It's not just headlights either, your interior vehicle lighting, nav/infotainment system, etc, all contribute to this, especially in the cooler color spectrum.

 

[meep]

Yeah - and note - I'm not condemning anyone here - but the foreground lighting thing is true - and after 3 projector mods I can say that even costly projectors don't always get it right. I did a morimoto mini H4 mod a few years ago and wanted to love it. I sunk $200 and a full day into it, and by all indications it should have been awesome. Looked great, nice light color, hi/lo, (hi was > w e a k pride, I pulled them out and put halogens back in. In the process, I polished the reflectors and sealed them inside with mothers wax. While I lost the beautiful foreground spread, the repaired reflector far outdid the mini H4s.

The brighter foreground makes the distant vision weaker, but because it's brighter I felt like it was better, until I just realized it wasn't. kinda stunk.

The mini D2S I'm trying now are better than the mini H4 in this regard, but it's still not anything like volvos I've owned with normal halogens. They are still far better than the oem halogens. If these fall apart, however, I'll next try standard life halogen bulbs with upgraded wiring harness. I've not found aftermarket to be a hassle free, long term quality solution.

 

[meep]

Incidentally, my favorite mod was a set of morimoto H1 projectors tightly shoehorned into a set of gen1 Tundra fogs. The OEM fogs were of little use and sort of just blurted their measley 35 Watts or so out on the pavement, short and wide, but they really didn't do anything well. It was a tight fit, but the H1 projectors had some width to them but also had a better reach to them, while keeping that precise cutoff down low. I used yellow tint on the lens and really appreciated them on a long night drive. Long reach, all the light stayed on the ground, and the yellow was low glare.

I'd consider repeating this mod except they won't fit the truck.

 

[AdRock]

In my 2018 F150 I installed the Crystalux G11 LEDs in my highs and lows and the some Sinoparcel 9005's in the fog lights. All of them work great. Much better visibility. I was flashed once after install. I adjusted the lights a little that night and haven't been flashed since. There's no more glare to other drivers than any other lights on the road. I had someone drive my truck while I drove their car. I wanted to see first hand what if any glare was like. It was plenty acceptable. These LED's blow the stock crap halogens out of the water.

 

[Deontologist]

A test of 9 commonly available LED bulbs on the market in 3 different headlamps for a total of 27 unique LED bulb+headlamp combinations found that not a single combination had acceptable levels of glare and produced acceptable seeing distances, and yet your LED bulb in your halogen headlamp supposedly works great: it not only gives you more seeing distance but also no glare.

Color me impressed!

Even if you did somehow stumble upon the magical combination of Chinese LED bulb and headlamp assembly that works great, I cannot make a categorical recommendation for LED bulbs. The thread topic is: "Any Known After Market HID or LED Headlight Upgrades that are Good as OEM ?" and the answer to that question is no. There are no "known" aftermarket LED bulbs that are as good as OEM. There are plenty of known aftermarket LED bulbs that are not as good as OEM, as the SAE study shows.

Sure, there might be a few combinations of LED bulbs and headlamps that work acceptably, but can we really make a categorical assertion that everyone should immediately dump their halogens for a Chinese LED bulb? Can we honestly make that generalization after finding that 27/27 LED bulb+halogen headlamp assemblies failed?