Gas Pump Ethanol Markings

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FWIW: Around here, the "FFV" gas is marked "51% to 83% Ethanol content". Normally in the summer it is much closer to the 83% and is ~$0.40/gal cheaper (varies a bit) than 87 octane E10 gas at the same station. I seem to remember it was marked 100 octane but I need to look closer next time.
 
I believe the energy content of ethanol fuels is lower. All three of my flex fuel vehicles get lower gas mileage on E15 to E85 fuel. My 13 Taurus and 14 explorer loose about 3 mpg on e85 and my o9 crown vic looses 5 mpg.

And I believe the e85 pump was miss marked at 88 octane, but the pump was very ethanol friendly. Individual buttons for e15,e30,e50,e70 and e85.
 
Originally Posted by Skippy722
I'm surprised it's marked as e85 but it's only 5 cents cheaper. Around here there is a separate handle for e15, it runs about 5c cheaper, but it says suitable for any car 2001 or newer.



Never purchased any E85 , but it is advertised around $ .15 a gallon than the E10 . Do not own a flex fule vehicle , so does not matter to me .

Ethanol weighs less , per gallon . That is why it gets lower MPG . On the other hand , it can / does rais the octane raring of the base gas .
 
with the corn planting missed and prospects for a small harvest expect ethanol prices to go way up. Hope they come to their senses and allow us to get real gas.

Rod
 
Originally Posted by Skippy722
I'm surprised it's marked as e85 but it's only 5 cents cheaper. Around here there is a separate handle for e15, it runs about 5c cheaper, but it says suitable for any car 2001 or newer.

All of my vehicle owners manuals say to use nothing over 10% ethanol or engine damage will occur that is NOT covered by the new car warranty. Who decided E15 is good to go? I recall Car manufacturers said NO!.not long ago.
E15 is a maybe on a VERY newer car with a wideband O2 sensor and fuel sensing.. OTW you are mapped at open loop for E10 - there is no A/F control for fuel type once you are off closed loop - -which will be all the time that you are not running a very light throttle opening or downhill cruise. Any upwards grade or acceleration and you will likely be open loop.

Anybody chime in on E15? I don't see it in the North East.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Ws6
I just pay the extra 20 to 30 cents for ethanol free. [censored] corn.


Some engines can get considerably more power from E85 than from E10 or E0 so I can see why someone might be annoyed they aren't getting what the pump says.
 
Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by oldhp
I should have further explained my belief. A friend has a 1969 Road Runner with a 500c.i. engine. It was set up to run E85 fuel/100 octane. Well he got a tank of, we guess, fake E85, or E51 or what ever. Engine rattled like crazy. This is my complaint. E85 is supposed to be 100+ octane. Its advertised as such and should be that. After that he went back to pump gas premium with 110 octane race gas added in.

Not a problem with a modern flex-fuel engine. It might reduce performance, but the higher energy content would provide better fuel economy.

Now older carb'ed vehicles are another matter.


Nope. The more % of ethanol the less MPG.
 
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted by Skippy722
I'm surprised it's marked as e85 but it's only 5 cents cheaper. Around here there is a separate handle for e15, it runs about 5c cheaper, but it says suitable for any car 2001 or newer.

All of my vehicle owners manuals say to use nothing over 10% ethanol or engine damage will occur that is NOT covered by the new car warranty. Who decided E15 is good to go? I recall Car manufacturers said NO!.not long ago.
E15 is a maybe on a VERY newer car with a wideband O2 sensor and fuel sensing.. OTW you are mapped at open loop for E10 - there is no A/F control for fuel type once you are off closed loop - -which will be all the time that you are not running a very light throttle opening or downhill cruise. Any upwards grade or acceleration and you will likely be open loop.

Anybody chime in on E15? I don't see it in the North East.


Ran it in my Caliber all the time, manual said nothing over 10%. Nothing bad ever happened. According to the Department of Energy, e15 must be between 10.5% and 15%. If I was a betting man I'd bet you'd have a hard time finding anything much above 12% or 13% in the real world.

The 300 says e15 is perfectly fine. It loses ~1mpg on it, otherwise you can't tell a difference. Doing the math, you come out ahead even if you lost 2mpg.
 
Originally Posted by Surestick
Originally Posted by Ws6
I just pay the extra 20 to 30 cents for ethanol free. [censored] corn.


Some engines can get considerably more power from E85 than from E10 or E0 so I can see why someone might be annoyed they aren't getting what the pump says.


Yup, my tune on my 2.0T allows me to get more power if I run a mix of FFV and 93 octane (E10) gas, effectively an E30 blend. I can feel the difference (uncalibrated "butt dyno").

BTW: In my checking out the FFV pump yesterday, the octane content is NOT labeled. Perhaps due to the Ethanol being allowed to vary from 51%-83% over the year.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted by Skippy722
I'm surprised it's marked as e85 but it's only 5 cents cheaper. Around here there is a separate handle for e15, it runs about 5c cheaper, but it says suitable for any car 2001 or newer.

All of my vehicle owners manuals say to use nothing over 10% ethanol or engine damage will occur that is NOT covered by the new car warranty. Who decided E15 is good to go? I recall Car manufacturers said NO!.not long ago.
E15 is a maybe on a VERY newer car with a wideband O2 sensor and fuel sensing.. OTW you are mapped at open loop for E10 - there is no A/F control for fuel type once you are off closed loop - -which will be all the time that you are not running a very light throttle opening or downhill cruise. Any upwards grade or acceleration and you will likely be open loop.

Anybody chime in on E15? I don't see it in the North East.


Ran it in my Caliber all the time, manual said nothing over 10%. Nothing bad ever happened. According to the Department of Energy, e15 must be between 10.5% and 15%. If I was a betting man I'd bet you'd have a hard time finding anything much above 12% or 13% in the real world.

The 300 says e15 is perfectly fine. It loses ~1mpg on it, otherwise you can't tell a difference. Doing the math, you come out ahead even if you lost 2mpg.

Thats surprising on your Caliber since I would guess that doesn't have wideband mixture control. Maybe I'm wrong. How often did you give the car more than 1/2 throttle - as in entering the state road or highway?
 
Originally Posted by oldhp
Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by oldhp
I should have further explained my belief. A friend has a 1969 Road Runner with a 500c.i. engine. It was set up to run E85 fuel/100 octane. Well he got a tank of, we guess, fake E85, or E51 or what ever. Engine rattled like crazy. This is my complaint. E85 is supposed to be 100+ octane. Its advertised as such and should be that. After that he went back to pump gas premium with 110 octane race gas added in.

Not a problem with a modern flex-fuel engine. It might reduce performance, but the higher energy content would provide better fuel economy.

Now older carb'ed vehicles are another matter.


Nope. The more % of ethanol the less MPG.

I was referring to modern flex-fuel engines tolerating almost anything. And I thought you were referring to the allowance that E85 could be as little as 51% ethanol, in which case I was implying that the fuel economy would go up as the energy content went up. However, performance would probably go down because the AKI octane rating would also go down.

And E85 at the highest ethanol content in an engine that can account for it will be more efficient relative to the energy content.
 
Originally Posted by y_p_w
I was referring to modern flex-fuel engines tolerating almost anything. And I thought you were referring to the allowance that E85 could be as little as 51% ethanol, in which case I was implying that the fuel economy would go up as the energy content went up. However, performance would probably go down because the AKI octane rating would also go down.

The octane rating will be what is placarded on the pump.
 
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted by Skippy722
I'm surprised it's marked as e85 but it's only 5 cents cheaper. Around here there is a separate handle for e15, it runs about 5c cheaper, but it says suitable for any car 2001 or newer.

All of my vehicle owners manuals say to use nothing over 10% ethanol or engine damage will occur that is NOT covered by the new car warranty. Who decided E15 is good to go? I recall Car manufacturers said NO!.not long ago.
E15 is a maybe on a VERY newer car with a wideband O2 sensor and fuel sensing.. OTW you are mapped at open loop for E10 - there is no A/F control for fuel type once you are off closed loop - -which will be all the time that you are not running a very light throttle opening or downhill cruise. Any upwards grade or acceleration and you will likely be open loop.

Anybody chime in on E15? I don't see it in the North East.


Ran it in my Caliber all the time, manual said nothing over 10%. Nothing bad ever happened. According to the Department of Energy, e15 must be between 10.5% and 15%. If I was a betting man I'd bet you'd have a hard time finding anything much above 12% or 13% in the real world.

The 300 says e15 is perfectly fine. It loses ~1mpg on it, otherwise you can't tell a difference. Doing the math, you come out ahead even if you lost 2mpg.

Thats surprising on your Caliber since I would guess that doesn't have wideband mixture control. Maybe I'm wrong. How often did you give the car more than 1/2 throttle - as in entering the state road or highway?


Mine was the 2.0L with the CVT... so quite often, otherwise it was miserably slow. I also drive my cars harder than most people.
 
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by y_p_w
I was referring to modern flex-fuel engines tolerating almost anything. And I thought you were referring to the allowance that E85 could be as little as 51% ethanol, in which case I was implying that the fuel economy would go up as the energy content went up. However, performance would probably go down because the AKI octane rating would also go down.

The octane rating will be what is placarded on the pump.

E85 doesn't typically have an octane rating listed on the pump. It can vary depending on the amount of ethanol. Like I said, more ethanol typically means better performance, but lower ethanol translates to higher mileage.
 
Originally Posted by ragtoplvr
with the corn planting missed and prospects for a small harvest expect ethanol prices to go way up. Hope they come to their senses and allow us to get real gas.

Rod


Could be, but corn prices don't dictate ethanol prices. Ethanol is traded on the same commodity exchange as gasoline and diesel. Some ethanol is imported. Corn futures prices are not really much higher than before the flooding situation in the midwest. In August 2012, corn prices were around $7.90. Corn futures right how are about $4.30. Now, it is up a little, from a few months ago, but nothing spectacular. Ethanol closed on the commodities exchange around $1.53. The futures trading market for the next 12 months shows very little change.

Only 7 states require ethanol laced gas to be sold. The feds do not mandate what goes on at the pump. The feds allow any station to sell ethanol free gasoline. Only states play the little games about whether it is readily available. For instance, I live in ethanol central. Surrounded by corn fields and 46 ethanol plants. The corn lobby rules the roost here. But I can easily get ethanol free gas if I want it at a dozen locations all within 11 miles of me. Would be closer but I live rural and I am 11 miles from 3 different towns. I can get ethanol free at several locations in each town.

You want ethanol free fuel readily available, then get a bunch of your neighbors and show up to your state capital with pitchforks and torches and demand it. OOPS... I didn't look closer, Rod. You are in one of those 7 states that requires it. Again, beat on your hired help in Jeff City and demand a change.
 
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