Help me choose 9mm carry ammo

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Originally Posted by Iowegian


A NRA lawyer and carry permit instructor told me that out of 21 times you need a weapon, 19 times just requires pointing your weapon at the thug and they will run, 1 time shooting them with a .22 will be enough to deal with them, and 1 time you will wish you had a 12 guage.


I believe this is pretty accurate...and when you factor in the fact that for a civilian it would be unusual to have to point a weapon at someone even once in their lifetime, it really illustrates how silly obsessing over ammo is. Get something that cycles flawlessly in your weapon, has a proven track record of expansion, and is affordable enough to practice with, and forget about it.
 
Originally Posted by Ws6

I enjoy 9PBLE, but it does offer reduced ability to reach vitals, especially in the event of barriers or an oblique through an arm, etc. Its in the same camp as the 125gr .357 SJHP. Spectacular successes...and failures.



The street record of the 9BPLE indicates otherwise. It has best long term street record of any 9mm round. But it just doesn't look super pretty in jello.
 
Federal HST standard pressure 124 gr. or 147 gr. ... About as close to perfect reliability and expansion as you will find .
 
Originally Posted by KCJeep
Shooting through somebody and hitting another innocent bystander is an internet myth. Find me one documented example of it I'd love to see it.


In this book: Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry

Massed Ayoob goes through DOCUMENTED ACTUAL cases of a round going through a bad guy and hitting an innocent.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0054KOLFQ/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

He starts the discussion with these words:

"From the early '90s adoption of 16-shot 9mm pistols (Glock 19, SIG-SAUER P226 DAO, and Smith & Wesson Model 5946) through 1999, NYPD issued a full metal jacket "hardball" round, comprising a round-nose 115 grain bullet in the mid-1100 fps velocity range. The New York Times exposed the following facts in its startling report on the matter: "According to statistics released by the department, 15 innocent bystanders were struck by police officers using full metal jacket bullets during 1995 and 1996, the police said. Eight were hit directly, five were hit by bullets that had passed through other people and two were hit by bullets that had passed through objects," stated the Times. In other words, in rough numbers, 53 percent of these tragic occurrences were apparently missed shots, while 33 percent were "shoot-throughs" of violent felony suspects. Counting bullets that went through objects to hit presumably unseen innocent victims (13 percent), that tells us that roughly 46 percent of these innocent bystanders were shot by over-penetrating bullets that "pierced their backstops." Let's call those victims Cases One Through Seven."

He continues:

"17 Officers Shot Due to Over-Penetration The Times continued, "In that same period, 44 police officers were struck by gunfire using the old ammunition: 21 were hit directly, 2 were struck by bullets that ricocheted and 17 were struck by bullets that passed through other people." In round numbers, 52 percent of those "friendly fire" casualties were hit by bullets that apparently missed their intended targets. 42 percent passed through the bodies of the intended targets after the bullets struck the people they were aimed at. Let's tally those victims of over-penetration as Cases Eight through Twenty-Four."

So, overpenetration happens.

It has killed people who were not the intended target.

It is most certainly NOT a myth.

Mas goes on to say,

"Some people either just don't get it, or have a totally irresponsible attitude. A popular Internet gun forum recently had a thread in its Caliber Corner section titled, "Why is over-penetration bad?" Most of those who posted had a pretty good grasp on the issue. One or two responsible, gun-wise participants even posted a link to the New York Times story and statistics above. Yet, even after that was posted, one participant wrote (the caps are his): "I have NEVER read ANY article or report addressing IDENTIFIED and actually occurring secondary victims." Now, you can put that down to simple ignorance, or haste in posting an opinion in a discussion he had not read and brought himself up to speed with. But how would you explain the following?"

"One fellow posted in the same discussion thread, "… and should over-penetration occur, oh well. The chances of it hitting someone else is practically nonexistent." Well, let's do the math. 46 percent of wounded innocent bystanders being hit by bullets that went through offenders' bodies or through objects that hopefully should have acted as backstops, is not "practically non-existent" by any stretch of the imagination. 42 percent of cops shot by friendly fire taking bullets that passed through the felony suspect first are not "practically non-existent." On the contrary, they are hugely significant. In that same thread, one poster callously said, "It's too bad about the bystanders. I call it gene pool cleansing." I don't think any comment is necessary on that one."

"Ignorance won't save you. You've heard and read people say that over-penetration is irrelevant because missed shots are a more likely danger. First, a defense that says in essence, "You must forgive me this mistake because I figured I'd probably make a much worse mistake" is a frail reed that will not withstand the gale-force winds of cross-examination. Second, 53 percent misses versus 46 percent shoot-throughs in the unintentional bystander shootings in New York hardly makes the latter "irrelevant." 52% misses versus 42 percent shoot-throughs in the friendly fire shootings of cops in the same study obviously shows that the over-penetrating bullet is not an "irrelevant" danger. The next time some Internet ninja advises you to load ball ammo for home or public defense, think of the above thirty cases. They are documented reality. And they are not the only such cases. Collective reality has given us a message, and it is this: Save the over-penetrating "hardball" for range practice. Load your concealed carry or home defense handgun with ammunition designed, and proven to be likely, to stay inside the body of the offender who forces you to shoot him. It's the responsible thing to do."

I stand with Mas on this point.

I highly recommend buying and reading his books.
 
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Most police shootings have less than 50% hit rate. The loose bullets are a much greater threat than pass through shots. Ayoob also isn't unbias. He had stock in Corbon back in the day.
 
Originally Posted by PW01
I'd like to thank all of you for your time and replies. I think I've settled on the Federal HST 124gr standard pressure


That's what's in my Shield.
 
Originally Posted by hatt
Most police shootings have less than 50% hit rate. The loose bullets are a much greater threat than pass through shots. Ayoob also isn't unbias. He had stock in Corbon back in the day.


He used NYC PD statistics...when they were using ball ammo...as published by a NYT investigation. Not Mas' own numbers.

46% of the bystanders hit were by bullets that passed through a perp.

That's a huge argument for HP ammo that stays in the bad guy.

And it completely dispels the "internet myth" argument about pass through shots.

Pass through shots were an enormous problem for the NYC PD until they wised up to hollow point ammo.
 
Originally Posted by Astro14
Originally Posted by hatt
Most police shootings have less than 50% hit rate. The loose bullets are a much greater threat than pass through shots. Ayoob also isn't unbias. He had stock in Corbon back in the day.


He used NYC PD statistics...when they were using ball ammo...as published by a NYT investigation. Not Mas' own numbers.

46% of the bystanders hit were by bullets that passed through a perp.

That's a huge argument for HP ammo that stays in the bad guy.

And it completely dispels the "internet myth" argument about pass through shots.

Pass through shots were an enormous problem for the NYC PD until they wised up to hollow point ammo.

I do not believe those numbers. NYPD has never had a 46% hit rate in any area.
 
I wouldn't believe them either, had I misinterpreted them like that.

They looked at bystanders who were hit.

Not hit percentages. Lots of shots that miss hit nothing.

But bystander get hit. So, they looked at HOW they got hit.

Of the bystanders who were hit, 46% were by bullets that went THROUGH A BAD GUY. The rest were misses that happened to hit a bystander.

One of the largest set of bystanders hit: fellow cops who had come to the rescue. Consider, officer struggling with perp, from what direction does fellow officer approach? Often, behind the perp, to maintain/gain advantage.

Weapon fired by first officer at perp, and the shot hits the officer behind after it passes through. This was remarkably common in the findings.

Look, the point is this: pass through hits happened and often.

Use hollow points.
 
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Not every hit is a center mass. How many superficial hits are in the mix that any bullets will keep going to an unintended target. I carry premium defensive ammo/bullets but this whole thing is overblown. Misses are more dangerous than pass throughs.

PS. I also just do not trust the numbers from law enforcement agencies. Shift the blame is always on the agenda.
 
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I thought we were discussing hollow points? I have repeatedly stated I favor high expansion projectiles, not due to over penetration but simply because they work better.

Never the less I guess I should have said "Except for the NYPD spraying ball ammo all over crowded New York streets".
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Apparently the NYPD can match most agencies actual hit rate with just pass throughs... that's quite a feat.

I am curious how they can tell who was hit with pass through bullets with ball ammo in the first place.

But I will concede if we are going to include ball ammo yes probably somebody somewhere has managed it.

Back to the topic at hand...pick a high expansion, affordable round that works flawlessly in your weapon and forget about it. Sounds like the OP has made a very good choice assuming they function perfectly in his weapon.
 
My shield shoots 115gr notably better than heavier loads. Even when doing slow, controlled fire. Based on this, and some ftf with a big HP like the sig loads, I keep with Hornady critical defense. Wouldn't be my first choice in a bigger package, as I prefer FBI spec performance, but for a simple ccw it is good stuff.
 
Originally Posted by PW01
I'd like to thank all of you for your time and replies. I think I've settled on the Federal HST 124gr standard pressure


A great choice. That was my first choice when I carried my Shield. After I started reloading, I switched to the 124 Gold Dot in +P so I could duplicate the performance in a practice round. I've since stopped carrying the Shield and now carry a Kahr .40 with 180 Gold-Dots for the same reason.
Here's some good ballistics info https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm
 
Originally Posted by PW01
I'd like to thank all of you for your time and replies. I think I've settled on the Federal HST 124gr standard pressure

You don't want to try a box first, to see if they shoot well in your gun?
 
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted by PW01
I'd like to thank all of you for your time and replies. I think I've settled on the Federal HST 124gr standard pressure

You don't want to try a box first, to see if they shoot well in your gun?

I usually shoot about 200-250 rds. to make sure my gun will not have any hiccups.
My EDC in 9mm is 147 gr. Winchester Golden Talons. My target load is either Tula or WWB 115 gr.
 
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