Current when jump starting a car

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Wife's Toyota Sienna was left in accessory mode for several days - battery quite dead. Jump-starting it from my car, I was wondering how much current is flowing into it?

It would seem like it could be quite a lot - source battery is rated over 500 CCA, cables are 8-ga, 10 ft. My hunch is that it's mostly limited by the charging resistance of the battery being charged.

So I decided to try to figure it out. Looking all over the internet - best I can find is this chart:
https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?attachments/image_3535-png.119206/

Doing the math @ 50% state of charge (13.4V - 12.3V) = (C/5) * R, R = 5.5V / C.

A random website on the internet tells me a typical car battery capacity is 45 - 50 Ah, so charging resistance at C/5 is 0.11 ohms.

Found a similar chart for discharging and I calculate discharge resistance is 0.05 ohms.

Cable resistance is negligible in comparison (though I wonder about the alligator clip contact resistance?), so [12.6V (source battery) - 11.5V (dead battery)] / 0.16 ohms = 9.375A, which is not really that much.

So, people in the know: did my google and math skills yield anything close to the right answer?
 
I can't help you on the rest, but that cable resistance goes up exponentially the more current that is put through it. Hence why you either have to wait awhile between start attempts, or you simply find that the wires on the jumper cables get warm while in use. I'd lay more credence in cable being the deciding resistance moreso than the battery charge resistance. Try a set of actual 4 or 2 gauge cables and see the difference right off.
 
Depends on how deeply discharged a battery is. One that's really depleted may have a high internal resistance and will charge very slowly. Still amazed I managed to resurrect the current battery in the lawn tractor that hadn't been used in a few years. When I put the charger on it, the ammeter didn't even twitch. When I put my DMM on it it registered about 10 milliamps. Yet after leaving it on for a day, it gradually increased, fully recharged and somehow it's been cranking over the tractor for the last two years. Thought that one was a goner, but I'm sure any day now the tractor will need a jump start.
 
Originally Posted by NateDN10
Wife's Toyota Sienna was left in accessory mode for several days - battery quite dead. Jump-starting it from my car, I was wondering how much current is flowing into it?

It would seem like it could be quite a lot - source battery is rated over 500 CCA, cables are 8-ga, 10 ft. My hunch is that it's mostly limited by the charging resistance of the battery being charged.

So I decided to try to figure it out. Looking all over the internet - best I can find is this chart:
https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?attachments/image_3535-png.119206/

Doing the math @ 50% state of charge (13.4V - 12.3V) = (C/5) * R, R = 5.5V / C.

A random website on the internet tells me a typical car battery capacity is 45 - 50 Ah, so charging resistance at C/5 is 0.11 ohms.

Found a similar chart for discharging and I calculate discharge resistance is 0.05 ohms.

Cable resistance is negligible in comparison (though I wonder about the alligator clip contact resistance?), so [12.6V (source battery) - 11.5V (dead battery)] / 0.16 ohms = 9.375A, which is not really that much.

So, people in the know: did my google and math skills yield anything close to the right answer?


The length , composition ( copper or aluminum ) and size / gauge ) , of the booster cables + the alligator clamps make a definite difference . As far as how fast one battery / alternator system can charge / boost another . In general , the larger size / diameter the booster cables are affects how well they function . If the same size / diameter , copper cables are better than aluminum . As far as the actual conductors , not the insulation diameter .
 
With the tiny contact points on a jumper cable you are lucky to get 50 to 75 amps. Side post batteries are the worst. Typical starter draw in cars ranges from just over 100 to peaks of 200 as the engine rocks over compression. Average seems to be around 150 amps if temperate weather. Winter at -15C 5.7L V8 broken in well was 300 to 350 amps. The quality of the clamp (usually copper plated steel) and the post (lead that can be dug into for a good connection or steel side terminals) limits the current much more than the size of the cable. It would be rare to benefit from the expensive 2 or 4 gauge cables. 6 or 8 gauge is sufficient. You can even argue that a lower current connection is easier on the host vehicle and easier on the battery of the vehicle needing jumped. Personally I use 8 gauge cables as they pack small. Everyone is in such a hurry. Taking a bit of time I have even jump started cars from my motorcycle. 14 amp hour battery.

The way jumpers work best is to charge the battery a bit, even in a few seconds, and it supplies some of the current and the cable supplies some.

If you battery is very discharged you may have to let battery charge a minute or more. I recommend this always as it is easier on the starter. In cases where the internal connections of the battery are broken and the battery is open (meaning it might as well not be there, it can be very difficult to make a good enough connection to jump start ever. If you leave the lights on for days, the battery can become so discharged it will not accept charge very fast, in this case you may need to leave the jumper cables connected for 15 minutes or longer. NEVER EVER Jump a frozen battery or take off the vent covers it you have removable ones.

Never let the solenoid chatter, it can make enough heat to weld the contacts and this ruins the starter. Occasionally it even ruins the flywheel gears.

Modern electronic controlled cars really should not be operated without a battery as it also functions as a surge absorber and the electronics can be damaged.

Rod
 
You can do the math with voltage drop, too. The donor vehicle will be running at 14 volts and the victim could be cranking over with around 9. When someone starts yakking about how a particular gauge cable "is only rated to carry...", they're typically referring to building codes, continuous duty, and a 2% voltage drop. They can do a LOT more on intermittent duty.

Current increases when voltage drops-- my Valeo gear reduction starter for a saturn s-series was rated at 1200 watts, FWIW. So the ballparks of 100-150 amps seem reasonable.

I believe typical car batteries to be closer to 90 Ah, if that helps your math.

Suppose the question is, how does the dead battery do? It would be interesting to jump straight to the starter and measure the separate (dead) battery feed to see how much it contributes. If the donor vehicle sags to 9 volts, and the "dead" battery is at 11.5 with a surface charge, it'll start dipping, and contributing, as well.
 
Originally Posted by NateDN10
Wife's Toyota Sienna was left in accessory mode for several days - battery quite dead. Jump-starting it from my car, I was wondering how much current is flowing into it?

It would seem like it could be quite a lot - source battery is rated over 500 CCA, cables are 8-ga, 10 ft. My hunch is that it's mostly limited by the charging resistance of the battery being charged.

So I decided to try to figure it out. Looking all over the internet - best I can find is this chart:
https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?attachments/image_3535-png.119206/

Doing the math @ 50% state of charge (13.4V - 12.3V) = (C/5) * R, R = 5.5V / C.

A random website on the internet tells me a typical car battery capacity is 45 - 50 Ah, so charging resistance at C/5 is 0.11 ohms.

Found a similar chart for discharging and I calculate discharge resistance is 0.05 ohms.

Cable resistance is negligible in comparison (though I wonder about the alligator clip contact resistance?), so [12.6V (source battery) - 11.5V (dead battery)] / 0.16 ohms = 9.375A, which is not really that much.

So, people in the know: did my google and math skills yield anything close to the right answer?


Clamp on DC ammeter.

You can also connect up a DC amp probe to an oscilloscope. Clamp to the battery cable and crank car. You can see the compression of each cylinder compared to the others.
 
Originally Posted by NateDN10
so [12.6V (source battery) - 11.5V (dead battery)] / 0.16 ohms = 9.375A, which is not really that much.


11.5 volts is STATIC (sitting there) - not dynamic
As soon as you hit the starter, that 11.5 goes down to about 4v-5v if the battery discharged.

You can expect 8 gauge jumper cables to carry 200 amps for about 10-15 seconds before they get pretty warm!!
 
Originally Posted by ragtoplvr

The way jumpers work best is to charge the battery a bit, even in a few seconds, and it supplies some of the current and the cable supplies some.


I tell people at least 15-20 before even attempting a start!

Let it charge... let it charge... let it charge..... let it charge....
 
Originally Posted by Donald


Clamp on DC ammeter.

You can also connect up a DC amp probe to an oscilloscope. Clamp to the battery cable and crank car. You can see the compression of each cylinder compared to the others.

That's a neat idea.

Anyhow, thanks for the input, all. It seems like my math has to be off. What I really should've done is to measure the voltage of the dead battery before charging, while charging, and after charging for a while. I did measure while charging (after 5 minutes or so) and it was 13.5V. Tried to start at that point and it caught but then immediately died. Let it charge for another 5 minutes or so and it was fine.

Part of the reason I was wondering is that I smelled sulfur while it was charging, which would seem to mean the sulfuric acid was undergoing some sort of reaction.
 
Last edited:
I have some actual data on this.

I have started my 5.2 liter v8 engine on only an 18AH AGM. My starter is rated at 1400 watts, that is its output, its input was measure at nearly 1800 watts.

1800 watts at 10 volts is 180 amps.

How much a jumper pack will assist the engine starting battery depends on how discharged the engine battery really is/ and its condition/health, and the cables paralleling the batteries (their length and gauge) as well as the size and condition and state of charge of the jumper battery. The jumper pack's rested full charge voltage also plays a part.

I can easily hook my 18Ah AGM battery semi permanently in parallel, to assist my engine battery, with my meter inline to record surge amps.

My engine starting battery is a group 27 northstar AGM. rated at 90Ah, 930CCA, 5.5 years old and ~1100 deep cycles and double that amount of shallow cycles, and many thousand engine starts which I do not consider a cycle..... It is nearing the end of its ueful lifespan.

My fully charged 18AH AGM battery will assist the Northstar with 53.5 amps of starter current, over~ 4 feet of 8awg, when the engine battery is close to fully charged, and it provides more amperage the lower the state of charge of the engine battery, I've seen as high as 72 amps assist with the engine battery around 65% charged. I've not had to hook my 18AH jumper battery to assist my overdepleted engine battery, yet. but I suspect the surge amperage measured would be higher if I instantly parallelled and started, compared to parallelling then letting the jumper partially charge the jumpee battery.

With both batteries in parallel the engine cranks noticeably faster and voltage falls much less than the engine battery alone. I have digital ammeters and voltmeters on my dash and view every engine start as a mini load test, and have been watching the voltage farther and farther as the battery ages.

Theory and equations and math are great, but proper tools and temperments to collect actual data, for the win.

When jumpstarting, the thinner the jumpercables conductors, the longer one should leave the batteries in parallel before cranking the dead engine. BIG fat all copper jumper cables with quality parrot clamps can allow the jumpee to turn the key immediately. The thicker and shorter the copper parallelling the battreies, the more they act like one bigger battery.

Be aware that many jumper cables have 10AWG conductors in really thick insulation. 10AWG is rated for ~30 amps continuous. this 10AWG might be copper clad aluminum wire, which is raed for less amperage continuous. Lots of clamps are intended to dig into the soft lead of battery posts and cable clamps. They do not dig into steel very well and the actual surface area touching between clamp and battery might be pitifully small. Some jumper cables will only have one 'live' side of the clamp's jaws.

Remember a healthy battery depleted to less than 80% charged, can get to back upto 80% charged realtively quickly with a high amperage charging source seeking mid 14 volts, but 80% to 100% cannot be accomplished in less than 3.5 hours, and those 3.5 hours assume the battery is being held at 14.5ish vlts for that duration. Lesser electrical pressure(voltage) slow down battery charging greatly.

Any car requiring a jumpstart should ideally be plugged in to a grid powered charger, as ALL lead acid batteries ideally want to be kept at 100% state of charg always, and also kept cool. A battery hovinging in the 80 to 85% SOC range will live a fraction the amount of time as one kept in the 99%+ charged range.

So If one needed a jumpstart of a discharged but still healthy battery, and then drove for an hour, the battery is likely well less than but certainly no more than 85% charged, and 3+ more hours are required to approach 100% charged, assumig the vehcile is holding voltage in the 14.5v range, which very few to none actually do.

A relatively healthy battery will accept about half to 1/3 the amount of current with 13.7v at battery terminals, compared to 14.7v.
Unhealthy batteries will likely never reach full charge at 13.7v, no matter how long 13.7v is applied.

This is proveable with a hydrometer, but the 'trickle charge it overnight' mafia is alive and loud, and delusional, if they believe that 12 hours held at 13.7v is some magcal battery restorative. Any charging is better than no charging but a lead acid battery at any state of charge less than 100%, craves a true full charge .

The alternator and its voltage regulator are not magical instant battery chargers, nor are they intended to be, though the general motoring public seems to believe so.

They in fact are quite poor at bringing a battery back upto 100% State of charge, and the lower their average state of charge and the higher the average battery temperature, the shorter they can be expected to live.

Defects aside, The worst lead acid battery kept fully charged, will outlast the best battery chronically undercharged. regardless of the price paid, the warranty, or the font and colors on the sticker.

However the motoring public and even skilled mechanics seems to believe the exact opposite, that somehow a better marketed, more expensive battery is immune to living chronically undercharged. It is NOT.

Most every lead acid battery on the planet at this moment is less than 100% charged. Exceptional battery life can be achieved when it is regularly returned to 100% charged, and kept as near there as possible.

Voltage is ONLY indicative of state of charge on a battery which has not seen any discharging loads or charging sources for many many hours, and full charge resting voltage can range from 12.6 to 13.2v. Judging battery state of charge, or state of health, by voltage alone is like throwing a rock at a rubber band and guessing how heavy the rock is, by how much the rubber band stretched. You are unlikely to even hit the rubber band, much less determine how far it stretched.
 
Look at the dinky little jump start batteries you can charge with your phone charger, and note how puny the cables are. They work because the massive start amperage is drawn from the main battery and the regular battery cables and the path from the jump start battery to the starter passes through the main battery, which limits current significantly. If you connected your jump start battery directly to the starter you might melt the puny cables, but not if you attach it to the main battery first.
 
Heh heh Great read. I was gifted a jump pack that while it lasted would start a car easily. It had an 18 AH fire alarm battery..All clamps I've ever used had only one side of the clamp conducting. Copper is what you want. 2AWG fine stranded welding cable and solid copper clamp jaws. Anything else is just frustrating. Under perfect conditions aluminum cable with electroplated copper steel will work, One use under field conditions, Is the best ad for a good set.
grin2.gif
 
I carry 20 ft 4 gauge cables with heavy clamps. Just my experience, but I've had 2 or 3 occasions when someone was trying to jumpstart a car with light gauge cables and couldn't get it running. My heavy cables using the same donor battery got it running. My biggest engine* uses 3 size 31 batteries in parallel for starting. They are plugged in to a charger 24/7 in normal service. I've also got a bank of 6 sIze 4D deep cycles that I can parallel if needed to get the thing cranked.

* Detroit Diesel 60 series 12.7 liter
 
Originally Posted by mahansm
I've had 2 or 3 occasions when someone was trying to jumpstart a car with light gauge cables and couldn't get it running.


I tell everyone that will listen that these are to be called "Charging Cables" ...... not "Jump Starting Cables"
 
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