wemay
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2019 JD Power Initial Quality
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I'm surprised at how poorly Subaru and Acura did, and how Infiniti had such a spread from Nissan.
Not surprised about Chrysler, Alfa, LR, Jag, VW, though. Those always come out on the bottom of reliability/quality surveys.
Not surprised about the Koreans. I said about 5 years ago they were modeling Toyota during their hayday and would become known as "almost as good as...but way cheaper and more reliable" vs. BMW, MB, etc.
Not surprised about Chrysler, Alfa, LR, Jag, VW, though. Those always come out on the bottom of reliability/quality surveys.
Not surprised about the Koreans. I said about 5 years ago they were modeling Toyota during their hayday and would become known as "almost as good as...but way cheaper and more reliable" vs. BMW, MB, etc.
CHEVY JUST EARNED ANOTHER JD POWER INITIAL QUALITY AWARD!
On a side note the "Initial quality study" measures problems experienced in the first 90 days of purchase. Almost worthless in my opinion.
On a side note the "Initial quality study" measures problems experienced in the first 90 days of purchase. Almost worthless in my opinion.
Originally Posted by Ws6
I'm surprised at how poorly Subaru and Acura did, and how Infiniti had such a spread from Nissan.
Not surprised about Chrysler, Alfa, LR, Jag, VW, though. Those always come out on the bottom of reliability/quality surveys.
Not surprised about the Koreans. I said about 5 years ago they were modeling Toyota during their hayday and would become known as "almost as good as...but way cheaper and more reliable" vs. BMW, MB, etc.
So, you base your decision on buying vehicle on a study that measures quality first 90 days? Than why you did not buy MOPAR instead of Mazda?
I'm surprised at how poorly Subaru and Acura did, and how Infiniti had such a spread from Nissan.
Not surprised about Chrysler, Alfa, LR, Jag, VW, though. Those always come out on the bottom of reliability/quality surveys.
Not surprised about the Koreans. I said about 5 years ago they were modeling Toyota during their hayday and would become known as "almost as good as...but way cheaper and more reliable" vs. BMW, MB, etc.
So, you base your decision on buying vehicle on a study that measures quality first 90 days? Than why you did not buy MOPAR instead of Mazda?
Originally Posted by FordBroncoVWJeta
CHEVY JUST EARNED ANOTHER JD POWER INITIAL QUALITY AWARD!
On a side note the "Initial quality study" measures problems experienced in the first 90 days of purchase. Almost worthless in my opinion.
It is THE MOST ridiculous reliability study!
Generally JD Power is a marketing trick invented to hook up manfacturers paying for services. There was some year ago very good article of what kind of nonsense JD Power is.
CHEVY JUST EARNED ANOTHER JD POWER INITIAL QUALITY AWARD!
On a side note the "Initial quality study" measures problems experienced in the first 90 days of purchase. Almost worthless in my opinion.
It is THE MOST ridiculous reliability study!
Generally JD Power is a marketing trick invented to hook up manfacturers paying for services. There was some year ago very good article of what kind of nonsense JD Power is.
It is an interesting metric on who gets the vehicle right initially (not long term). Korean used to dwell at bottom but made it a point to get vehicles right and it shows in this metric. Subaru has suffered growing pains and now is focusing on it apparently. (https://jalopnik.com/subarus-trying-to-fix-its-quality-problem-before-its-to-1835819521)
That all being said my wife's 2018 VW did have one very annoying issue in first 90 days. The sunroof was dripping into seatbelts. It turned out the drains in two months were full of pollen(excess year) which they partially blamed on some sunroof grease in drains to have warranty cover it.
That all being said my wife's 2018 VW did have one very annoying issue in first 90 days. The sunroof was dripping into seatbelts. It turned out the drains in two months were full of pollen(excess year) which they partially blamed on some sunroof grease in drains to have warranty cover it.
Yeah, I don't know anything for a fact but, I have heard that JDP is just and ad co that'll say anything a company pays them to say. However, I have been seeing trends in the market that have shown the Koreans to be inching upward in many metrics.
And because the Koreans are still climbing upward, they may in fact be building the best products due to wanting to jump ahead of their competition as Honda & Toyota(and most of the Japanese car mfgs) did years ago.
And because the Koreans are still climbing upward, they may in fact be building the best products due to wanting to jump ahead of their competition as Honda & Toyota(and most of the Japanese car mfgs) did years ago.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Ws6
I'm surprised at how poorly Subaru and Acura did, and how Infiniti had such a spread from Nissan.
Not surprised about Chrysler, Alfa, LR, Jag, VW, though. Those always come out on the bottom of reliability/quality surveys.
Not surprised about the Koreans. I said about 5 years ago they were modeling Toyota during their hayday and would become known as "almost as good as...but way cheaper and more reliable" vs. BMW, MB, etc.
So, you base your decision on buying vehicle on a study that measures quality first 90 days? Than why you did not buy MOPAR instead of Mazda?
No, I actually base it on consumer reports (focusing on predicted reliability, and ownership satisfaction), Edmund's true cost to own, True Delta, and JD Power 3 year (paying attention specifically to "mechanical").
The one year I flew in the face of all that (2014), where I bought a Chrysler (2010 Jeep Grand Cherokee, Limited/HEMI, QD2), all my friends told me I was stupid and that Chrysler is junk. I said 'That's just internet crap". I ate a lot of crow 2014-2015 when it was always in the shop, which, by the way, was backlogged by 2+ weeks because of all the broken Chrysler trash they kept having to fix. The GM shop would see you same-day walk in, as would literally every other dealer I frequented in that area. Not the FCA dealer though. Oh, no. Make an appointment for next week at best, or if it's broke NOW, go get you a rental car, because it's going to be a while and all their loaners are used up perpetually.
https://www.jdpower.com/Cars/Ratings/dependability/2019/Manufacturers
https://www.truedelta.com/car-reliability-by-brand?min=2016&max=2019
![[Linked Image]](https://wtop.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/0221_Brand-Report-Cards-CR-Apr-19-2.jpg "[Linked Image]")
Originally Posted by Ws6
I'm surprised at how poorly Subaru and Acura did, and how Infiniti had such a spread from Nissan.
Not surprised about Chrysler, Alfa, LR, Jag, VW, though. Those always come out on the bottom of reliability/quality surveys.
Not surprised about the Koreans. I said about 5 years ago they were modeling Toyota during their hayday and would become known as "almost as good as...but way cheaper and more reliable" vs. BMW, MB, etc.
So, you base your decision on buying vehicle on a study that measures quality first 90 days? Than why you did not buy MOPAR instead of Mazda?
No, I actually base it on consumer reports (focusing on predicted reliability, and ownership satisfaction), Edmund's true cost to own, True Delta, and JD Power 3 year (paying attention specifically to "mechanical").
The one year I flew in the face of all that (2014), where I bought a Chrysler (2010 Jeep Grand Cherokee, Limited/HEMI, QD2), all my friends told me I was stupid and that Chrysler is junk. I said 'That's just internet crap". I ate a lot of crow 2014-2015 when it was always in the shop, which, by the way, was backlogged by 2+ weeks because of all the broken Chrysler trash they kept having to fix. The GM shop would see you same-day walk in, as would literally every other dealer I frequented in that area. Not the FCA dealer though. Oh, no. Make an appointment for next week at best, or if it's broke NOW, go get you a rental car, because it's going to be a while and all their loaners are used up perpetually.
https://www.jdpower.com/Cars/Ratings/dependability/2019/Manufacturers
https://www.truedelta.com/car-reliability-by-brand?min=2016&max=2019
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So you guys think the JD Powers initial quality rankings are bogus, yet you all say the Koreans are doing better, which the survey clearly shows.
So I pose a couple questions. Are the Koreans really getting better, or are they paying JD Powers more than the others? Or both?
Why is a 90 day initial quality survey worthless? It is exactly what it says. It measures manufacturing defects. It is NOT a long term durability survey or ranking. For what it is supposed to be, how is it worthless?
I guess if one is trying to make a 90 day initial quality survey something it isn't supposed to be, then I can see how one would think it is bogus.
Go on and think this is bogus and worthless. If you were a company getting hurt by it, you'd be suing them pretty quickly for damaging your rep if it were bogus. My Dad was a GM engineer and they took this very seriously. All the auto manufacterers do. If he was alive today, he'd be thrilled to see where GM is scoring. He used to tell me that the JD Powers data was not far off of their own data, which was accurate because it was based on actual service claims and repairs in the first 90 days or whatever time period they'd want to see.
My old 2008 Jeep Wrangler would have done terribly in this survey. However, after 12 years and 132k miles that includes LOTS of off-road abuse all over the country, I think it would look pretty good in long term durability. I'd love to see how a Sportage would hold up to what its been through. [censored], it wouldn't have even made it up and over most of the trails and obstacles this Jeep does as a cakewalk. I've had no suspension or drivetrain failures over that time period, and the ol' machine looks and drives like new. I guess one of the 12v power outlets not working would hurt it in the survey, though, right? Lol.
So I pose a couple questions. Are the Koreans really getting better, or are they paying JD Powers more than the others? Or both?
Why is a 90 day initial quality survey worthless? It is exactly what it says. It measures manufacturing defects. It is NOT a long term durability survey or ranking. For what it is supposed to be, how is it worthless?
I guess if one is trying to make a 90 day initial quality survey something it isn't supposed to be, then I can see how one would think it is bogus.
Go on and think this is bogus and worthless. If you were a company getting hurt by it, you'd be suing them pretty quickly for damaging your rep if it were bogus. My Dad was a GM engineer and they took this very seriously. All the auto manufacterers do. If he was alive today, he'd be thrilled to see where GM is scoring. He used to tell me that the JD Powers data was not far off of their own data, which was accurate because it was based on actual service claims and repairs in the first 90 days or whatever time period they'd want to see.
My old 2008 Jeep Wrangler would have done terribly in this survey. However, after 12 years and 132k miles that includes LOTS of off-road abuse all over the country, I think it would look pretty good in long term durability. I'd love to see how a Sportage would hold up to what its been through. [censored], it wouldn't have even made it up and over most of the trails and obstacles this Jeep does as a cakewalk. I've had no suspension or drivetrain failures over that time period, and the ol' machine looks and drives like new. I guess one of the 12v power outlets not working would hurt it in the survey, though, right? Lol.
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Originally Posted by IndyFan
So you guys think the JD Powers initial quality rankings are bogus, yet you all say the Koreans are doing better, which the survey clearly shows.
So I pose a couple questions. Are the Koreans really getting better, or are they paying JD Powers more than the others? Or both?
Why is a 90 day initial quality survey worthless? It is exactly what it says. It measures manufacturing defects. It is NOT a long term durability survey or ranking. For what it is supposed to be, how is it worthless?
Btw, I have received their initial quality surveys on cars before, so I know they actually do collect this data. I got one on my 2018 Wrangler. Guess what? It had zero problems the first 90 days. That vehicle by its very nature has a bigger challenge to place well in this kind of survey because it has three top options, and all are much more complicated than a metal roof vehicle. (Soft top, 3 piece hard top, and Skyview top, which is VERY VERY complicated. One drip in a rain shower counts as a problem. Then there's wind noise, and so on. I think Jeep did very well considering this and the percentage of their sales that the Wrangler and now Gladiator mae up.) My 2008 Wrangler would not have fared very well. It had two problems, as I remember, one being with the hitch wiring and the other being the stereo needing reprogrammed. Long term, however, I'd have to say it would look pretty good. The thing looks and drives like new, in spite of 12 years of bouncing the [censored] out of it off-road from North Carolina to Utah and everywhere in between, with no major components failing because of it.. I could take it to the Rubicon right now, with confidence. Let's see how a Sportage holds up to that kind of abuse after a decade, Lol.
Go on and think this is bogus and worthless. If you were a company getting hurt by it, you'd be suing them pretty quickly for damaging your rep if it were bogus. My Dad was a GM engineer and they took this very seriously. All the auto manufacterers do. If he was alive today, he'd be thrilled to see where GM is scoring. He used to tell me that the JD Powers data was not far off of their own data, which was accurate because it was based on actual service claims and repairs in the first 90 days or whatever time period they'd want to see.
They're actually getting better. This is backed by literally every 90 day to 3 year study that follows vehicle dependability and satisfaction. For a demo, go click my links above. And yeah, FCA/Dodge keeps sucking. That was also born out in personal experience. Literally every vehicle I have ever owned, has performed about how you'd expect by averaging up how they do according to the above sources I've used, over the course of 100-150K miles.
So you guys think the JD Powers initial quality rankings are bogus, yet you all say the Koreans are doing better, which the survey clearly shows.
So I pose a couple questions. Are the Koreans really getting better, or are they paying JD Powers more than the others? Or both?
Why is a 90 day initial quality survey worthless? It is exactly what it says. It measures manufacturing defects. It is NOT a long term durability survey or ranking. For what it is supposed to be, how is it worthless?
Btw, I have received their initial quality surveys on cars before, so I know they actually do collect this data. I got one on my 2018 Wrangler. Guess what? It had zero problems the first 90 days. That vehicle by its very nature has a bigger challenge to place well in this kind of survey because it has three top options, and all are much more complicated than a metal roof vehicle. (Soft top, 3 piece hard top, and Skyview top, which is VERY VERY complicated. One drip in a rain shower counts as a problem. Then there's wind noise, and so on. I think Jeep did very well considering this and the percentage of their sales that the Wrangler and now Gladiator mae up.) My 2008 Wrangler would not have fared very well. It had two problems, as I remember, one being with the hitch wiring and the other being the stereo needing reprogrammed. Long term, however, I'd have to say it would look pretty good. The thing looks and drives like new, in spite of 12 years of bouncing the [censored] out of it off-road from North Carolina to Utah and everywhere in between, with no major components failing because of it.. I could take it to the Rubicon right now, with confidence. Let's see how a Sportage holds up to that kind of abuse after a decade, Lol.
Go on and think this is bogus and worthless. If you were a company getting hurt by it, you'd be suing them pretty quickly for damaging your rep if it were bogus. My Dad was a GM engineer and they took this very seriously. All the auto manufacterers do. If he was alive today, he'd be thrilled to see where GM is scoring. He used to tell me that the JD Powers data was not far off of their own data, which was accurate because it was based on actual service claims and repairs in the first 90 days or whatever time period they'd want to see.
They're actually getting better. This is backed by literally every 90 day to 3 year study that follows vehicle dependability and satisfaction. For a demo, go click my links above. And yeah, FCA/Dodge keeps sucking. That was also born out in personal experience. Literally every vehicle I have ever owned, has performed about how you'd expect by averaging up how they do according to the above sources I've used, over the course of 100-150K miles.
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[/quote]
They're actually getting better. This is backed by literally every 90 day to 3 year study that follows vehicle dependability and satisfaction. For a demo, go click my links above. And yeah, FCA/Dodge keeps sucking. That was also born out in personal experience. Literally every vehicle I have ever owned, has performed about how you'd expect by averaging up how they do according to the above sources I've used, over the course of 100-150K miles.[/quote]
That's my point. They are getting better and the survey shows it. So I'm asking the detractors how they can say it is bogus while it backs up their claims, too. It isn't bogus. It measures exactly what they are telling you it measures, and they fully disclose that it is a survey. That means it is vulnerable to bias. They don't lie, though. They tell you up front that it is a survey and how it is conducted. I just don't see how people claim it is a sham. I think it is just one tool to get some data.
Btw, I consider Consumer Reports subscribers to be far more biased than a random sample.
They're actually getting better. This is backed by literally every 90 day to 3 year study that follows vehicle dependability and satisfaction. For a demo, go click my links above. And yeah, FCA/Dodge keeps sucking. That was also born out in personal experience. Literally every vehicle I have ever owned, has performed about how you'd expect by averaging up how they do according to the above sources I've used, over the course of 100-150K miles.[/quote]
That's my point. They are getting better and the survey shows it. So I'm asking the detractors how they can say it is bogus while it backs up their claims, too. It isn't bogus. It measures exactly what they are telling you it measures, and they fully disclose that it is a survey. That means it is vulnerable to bias. They don't lie, though. They tell you up front that it is a survey and how it is conducted. I just don't see how people claim it is a sham. I think it is just one tool to get some data.
Btw, I consider Consumer Reports subscribers to be far more biased than a random sample.
Originally Posted by IndyFan
That's my point. They are getting better and the survey shows it. So I'm asking the detractors how they can say it is bogus while it backs up their claims, too. It isn't bogus. It measures exactly what they are telling you it measures, and they fully disclose that it is a survey. That means it is vulnerable to bias. They don't lie, though. They tell you up front that it is a survey and how it is conducted. I just don't see how people claim it is a sham. I think it is just one tool to get some data.
Btw, I consider Consumer Reports subscribers to be far more biased than a random sample.
Mainly it's butthurt FCA and Tesla owners who whine about it, lol!
This is why I use multiple sources and pick something that all of them agree is likely to be very reliable.
That's my point. They are getting better and the survey shows it. So I'm asking the detractors how they can say it is bogus while it backs up their claims, too. It isn't bogus. It measures exactly what they are telling you it measures, and they fully disclose that it is a survey. That means it is vulnerable to bias. They don't lie, though. They tell you up front that it is a survey and how it is conducted. I just don't see how people claim it is a sham. I think it is just one tool to get some data.
Btw, I consider Consumer Reports subscribers to be far more biased than a random sample.
Mainly it's butthurt FCA and Tesla owners who whine about it, lol!
This is why I use multiple sources and pick something that all of them agree is likely to be very reliable.
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Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by IndyFan
That's my point. They are getting better and the survey shows it. So I'm asking the detractors how they can say it is bogus while it backs up their claims, too. It isn't bogus. It measures exactly what they are telling you it measures, and they fully disclose that it is a survey. That means it is vulnerable to bias. They don't lie, though. They tell you up front that it is a survey and how it is conducted. I just don't see how people claim it is a sham. I think it is just one tool to get some data.
Btw, I consider Consumer Reports subscribers to be far more biased than a random sample.
Mainly it's butthurt FCA and Tesla owners who whine about it, lol!
This is why I use multiple sources and pick something that all of them agree is likely to be very reliable.
Yep, Lol! Hey, I'm an FCA owner and it doesn't bug me a bit. I've owned 3 Wranglers and know what I'm getting into. There's a reason they put drain plugs in the floor, Lol!
Originally Posted by IndyFan
That's my point. They are getting better and the survey shows it. So I'm asking the detractors how they can say it is bogus while it backs up their claims, too. It isn't bogus. It measures exactly what they are telling you it measures, and they fully disclose that it is a survey. That means it is vulnerable to bias. They don't lie, though. They tell you up front that it is a survey and how it is conducted. I just don't see how people claim it is a sham. I think it is just one tool to get some data.
Btw, I consider Consumer Reports subscribers to be far more biased than a random sample.
Mainly it's butthurt FCA and Tesla owners who whine about it, lol!
This is why I use multiple sources and pick something that all of them agree is likely to be very reliable.
Yep, Lol! Hey, I'm an FCA owner and it doesn't bug me a bit. I've owned 3 Wranglers and know what I'm getting into. There's a reason they put drain plugs in the floor, Lol!
I'd like to see a ranking which adjusts for new model launches. New models typically have teething problems especially if they're loaded with tech.
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
I'd like to see a ranking which adjusts for new model launches. New models typically have teething problems especially if they're loaded with tech.
What would you like to see "This car sucks, but maybe next year?"
I'd like to see a ranking which adjusts for new model launches. New models typically have teething problems especially if they're loaded with tech.
What would you like to see "This car sucks, but maybe next year?"
Acura dropped I believe due to the ZF transmission issues. Same transmission some Chrysler products use and also have issues with.
And consumer reports is garbage. Even Subaru admits they have quality and reliability issues.
https://jalopnik.com/subarus-trying-to-fix-its-quality-problem-before-its-to-1835819521
Consumer reports ranks cars from a small sample, those who subscribe to consumer reports, and their own internal opinions. They have been caught several times ranking cars that come from the same line, different badge, differently.
And consumer reports is garbage. Even Subaru admits they have quality and reliability issues.
https://jalopnik.com/subarus-trying-to-fix-its-quality-problem-before-its-to-1835819521
Consumer reports ranks cars from a small sample, those who subscribe to consumer reports, and their own internal opinions. They have been caught several times ranking cars that come from the same line, different badge, differently.
Originally Posted by Ws6
I'm surprised at how poorly Subaru and Acura did, and how Infiniti had such a spread from Nissan.
Not surprised about Chrysler, Alfa, LR, Jag, VW, though. Those always come out on the bottom of reliability/quality surveys.
Not surprised about the Koreans. I said about 5 years ago they were modeling Toyota during their hayday and would become known as "almost as good as...but way cheaper and more reliable" vs. BMW, MB, etc.
Hyundai's a huge conglomerate making all kinds of stuff.. and they're basically a family run company at the top. The automotive division adopted Lean and Six Sigma in the early 2000's following disastrous (and embarrassing internally) years of poor quality. Upon instituting Six Sigma, they basically began to study their competition Toyota and Honda. That's when they began offering the 10yr/100k mile warranty. They're actually one of the automotive industry's genuine success stories.
Their Huntsville, Alabama facility is state of the art and they operate the world's largest facility back home in S. Korea, capable of pumping out in excess of 1.5mill vehicles annually.
As for the rankings, I owned a Mitsubishi in the early 2000's and it was a dog with fleas and looks they haven't figured things out yet???. That's the car I actually traded in for my first Hyundai. That car, my first Hyundai, served me well for over 10yrs before I sold it. That's when I became a believer in Hyundai's renewed investment into building a quality vehicle. I'm now on my 2nd Hyundai/Kia... and it's going strong with 160k+ miles on it and it's only had 1 warranty issue which Kia fixed in all this time. I'll keep it for another 2-3yrs and we'll see how things are shaking in the new car market. Or maybe I'll just keep it and drive that SOB into the ground, who knows.
I'm surprised at how poorly Subaru and Acura did, and how Infiniti had such a spread from Nissan.
Not surprised about Chrysler, Alfa, LR, Jag, VW, though. Those always come out on the bottom of reliability/quality surveys.
Not surprised about the Koreans. I said about 5 years ago they were modeling Toyota during their hayday and would become known as "almost as good as...but way cheaper and more reliable" vs. BMW, MB, etc.
Hyundai's a huge conglomerate making all kinds of stuff.. and they're basically a family run company at the top. The automotive division adopted Lean and Six Sigma in the early 2000's following disastrous (and embarrassing internally) years of poor quality. Upon instituting Six Sigma, they basically began to study their competition Toyota and Honda. That's when they began offering the 10yr/100k mile warranty. They're actually one of the automotive industry's genuine success stories.
Their Huntsville, Alabama facility is state of the art and they operate the world's largest facility back home in S. Korea, capable of pumping out in excess of 1.5mill vehicles annually.
As for the rankings, I owned a Mitsubishi in the early 2000's and it was a dog with fleas and looks they haven't figured things out yet???. That's the car I actually traded in for my first Hyundai. That car, my first Hyundai, served me well for over 10yrs before I sold it. That's when I became a believer in Hyundai's renewed investment into building a quality vehicle. I'm now on my 2nd Hyundai/Kia... and it's going strong with 160k+ miles on it and it's only had 1 warranty issue which Kia fixed in all this time. I'll keep it for another 2-3yrs and we'll see how things are shaking in the new car market. Or maybe I'll just keep it and drive that SOB into the ground, who knows.
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wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
I'd like to see a ranking which adjusts for new model launches. New models typically have teething problems especially if they're loaded with tech.
Excellent idea
I'd like to see a ranking which adjusts for new model launches. New models typically have teething problems especially if they're loaded with tech.
Excellent idea
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