RedLine 10w-30 5k mi; Honda S2000 40k mi

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Sep 29, 2018
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This is my first UOA with this car. It's got 40,000 miles on it and compression tests 230 on all 4 cylinders, it comes from the factory at 240. The oil tested, Redline 10w-30, had 5,000 miles on it with an OEM filter. The UOA is showing high copper and lead counts in a ratio of nearly 2/1. Obviously the numbers are high, not sure why or what to do. The car gets driven aggressively on on ramps and in corners but it's not tracked or abused. The rest of the UOA looks great.

I got the car at 35k miles with no history before that.






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First run w/ Redline? There is a school of thought that Redline cleans aggressively and the numbers may not be from current wear. There was a thread on here that went into some details on the speculation as to why. I'd run another, shorter interval and test again.

I always thought that 10w-30 was light for that car considering the RoW spec was 5w-40 I believe. I had a 2001 and ran it on Redline 5w-40.

Nice car, enjoy! I had mine when I lived in Silicon Valley, CA is a fun place for a fun car.
 
I suspect the rod bearings are going away, we see some BMW engines with similar numbers and that is almost always the reason. I would drop the pan and look at them and replace before it wears through the copper layer, check the mains also.
At this stage its nothing more than swapping the shells which isn't a big deal. Forget the thicker oil business, once bearing shells get through the lead layer into the copper and clearances begin to increase there is no real way of stopping it.
 
Originally Posted by Trav
I suspect the rod bearings are going away, we see some BMW engines with similar numbers and that is almost always the reason. I would drop the pan and look at them and replace before it wears through the copper layer, check the mains also.
At this stage its nothing more than swapping the shells which isn't a big deal. Forget the thicker oil business, once bearing shells get through the lead layer into the copper and clearances begin to increase there is no real way of stopping it.



Think this is a likely possibility at 40K? Prior owner abuse?? The S2k is fun to rev....
 
Oh yes that is possible, many M3 cars that have been whipped on have done it earlier than that, around 30K on some years 08 IIRC being the worst.
The fact there is high lead numbers not just copper (possible cooler shedding) is a good indicator. The only other possibility but it would be so remote is if solder was used on a copper oil cooler that is shedding along with the copper, this would be a very remote possibility but not impossible.

Being a used car when he got it kind of leaves full disclosure of previous use a dark area. Personally I rather have a look see and find nothing or find the beginning of a issue before it comes back to bite me.

Just wanted to add it could be a thrust bearing wear on manual transmission.
 
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Since this is the first UOA and Red Line in the past has seemed to cause high copper or lead values, I would use a different oil and do a UOA on that. If the lead and copper come down a lot, it may indicate the engine is healthy. If you keep using the Red Line and the lead and copper don't come down, you won't be able to know if the engine is unhealthy or if the oil is causing those metals to slowly dissolve into the oil.
 
As a general rule, the S2000 is not known for trashing rod bearings.

Yes, there have been a few examples of this. But for the most part, it's fairly rare.

I ran a turbo S2000 for years with no rod bearing issues at all. 20 pounds boost, 8600RPM redline on a F22 engine. (normally about 8200)

Of course, I was using M1, 15W-50 and letting the engine warm completely before making it work hard.


As a general rule, S2000's seem to have a very, very audible rod knock when the #2 rod bearing is going. That's the one most likely to fail. They are not quiet engines, and they also exhibit a knock like tick from the valvetrain (VTEC lobes) due to lack of spring tension (over time) on the high lift lobe rocker arm. It's pretty much just a noise.
 
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I'd run a different oil for the next OCI with the same filter and do another sample at 5K. Probably not make a difference but at least you could rule that factor out.
 
Originally Posted by wings&wheels
First run w/ Redline? There is a school of thought that Redline cleans aggressively and the numbers may not be from current wear. I always thought that 10w-30 was light for that car considering the RoW spec was 5w-40 I believe. I had a 2001 and ran it on Redline 5w-40.


That's interesting that Redline cleaning up old wear could be the cause, I had no idea. Looks like the common recommendation is to retest but with a different type of oil. I've ordered an OEM filter and will swap in PP or something similar. I used to run redline in another car and I liked it. When I bought this one I changed the oil to redline. I believe the most recent PO was running mobile 1. 10w-30 is recommended spec for this car, 5w-40 if you're in cold climates.

Originally Posted by Trav
Being a used car when he got it kind of leaves full disclosure of previous use a dark area. Personally I rather have a look see and find nothing or find the beginning of a issue before it comes back to bite me.

Just wanted to add it could be a thrust bearing wear on manual transmission.


I have seen reports of S2000s going through rod bearings and even main bearings, but it's not that common and usually due to massive oil starvation, such as being 3 quarts down or extended cornering with r comps.

I'm going to put pulling the pan on the list and do it once I find someone who knows what they're looking for with the rod bearings. In the mean time I'm going to change the oil and filter. Regarding the thrust bearing, my wife drove the car while I was away at work for a week. I rode with her later and was cringing at how she was using the clutch, so perhaps that caused increased wear also.

Originally Posted by JAG
If you keep using the Red Line and the lead and copper don't come down, you won't be able to know if the engine is unhealthy or if the oil is causing those metals to slowly dissolve into the oil.


very good point.

Originally Posted by oldhp
What's the oil pressure look like when hot?


The car is basically stock with a conservative tune, I don't have an aftermarket oil pressure gauge, just a dummy light, which has never gone off and I've never had an issue with VTEC lagging, which reportedly happens when you have low oil.

Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
Just for kicks I would do another uoa on good otc synth 10W30,like PP or QSUD.


Doing this.
 
I would get the oil pressure specs from Honda and get your oil pressure checked at the block and the cylinder head. You have some serious bearing wear going on.
 
Redline seems to use a bit more calcium from what I can tell, and not much Magnesium. However their total is higher than most any other oil I looked at in the UOA section. Would make sense it could have more effect the first time around cleaning things up.

They also use a huge amount of moly. Can moly in high doses work counterproductively to zinc and phosphorus to any extent?
 
I have put 150k miles on our '06 S(just got back from a 8300 mile trip) and it has seen only 10/40(for the first 7 years) and M1 0/40 for the last 6 years. I have seen first hand S's that lost bearings on street drives(back roads) that had full oil but starved for oil on some of the roads we drive. All it takes is one time to kill the bearing when the pressure drops but like you said you don't know how the first owner drove the car.
Did you tune the car or was it done before you bought it? If it was done before you got it, most likely he did track it or drove it on aggressive drives. I have yet to meet an S owner that paid the money for a tune and then drove it like an old lady.

I would also cut the oil filter open to see what it has trapped(you can do this today and not even have to change out the oil). If its clean then put a new filter on and top it off, put 2500 miles on it and get a uoa. You can get the oil you need out of the dip stick hole so you don't have to waste good oil.

Rod
 
Originally Posted by rrounds
I have put 150k miles on our '06 S(just got back from a 8300 mile trip) and it has seen only 10/40(for the first 7 years) and M1 0/40 for the last 6 years. I have seen first hand S's that lost bearings on street drives(back roads) that had full oil but starved for oil on some of the roads we drive. All it takes is one time to kill the bearing when the pressure drops but like you said you don't know how the first owner drove the car.
Did you tune the car or was it done before you bought it? If it was done before you got it, most likely he did track it or drove it on aggressive drives. I have yet to meet an S owner that paid the money for a tune and then drove it like an old lady.

I would also cut the oil filter open to see what it has trapped(you can do this today and not even have to change out the oil). If its clean then put a new filter on and top it off, put 2500 miles on it and get a uoa. You can get the oil you need out of the dip stick hole so you don't have to waste good oil.


I pulled this UOA out of the dipstick hole with the blackstone pump. Nice method, wish I would have known about that with my previous cars.

I'm going to swap out the oil with a different brand. It's worth it for a another clean UOA. I haven't tuned the car yet, and I don't believe it was tuned before me. I bought the flashpro and HFC mainly because I can't stand the dead initial throttle response when city driving, and the 06+ cars run lean in VTEC, and this can be tuned out so valve clearances shrink slower.

Thanks for the tip about the oil filter, I'm going to cut it open when I change the oil, I'll post the pics/results.
 
I changed the oil over the weekend to PP 10w-30. First, impression, the car started easier and quieted down somewhat. Redline is definitely a lot thicker than the same weight PP. I don't think i'd use redline again unless I'm going for a hard track weekend. My impression was the engine was quieter and smoother, though it's also warmer out.

There is nothing else notable. The Redline was still somewhat amber when I drained it and there was no metal at all in it, I had an experienced mechanic double check the pan after I drained it. It was CLEAN. I'll cut the filter when I can find a filter cutter.

I'm going to get another UOI in about 1000 miles.
 
This post contains links to other threads discussing redline for my future reference:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...ead-redline-5w40-thoughts-ty#Post4796970

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=51602

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...e-redline-response-to-rls-uoas#Post51607

The initial higher level of metals seen with the Red Line are typicalvof what we see and drop over time, these are a factor of the additives used.


https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...ead-redline-5w40-thoughts-ty#Post4797099
 
Originally Posted by Gebo
I'd run a different oil for the next OCI with the same filter and do another sample at 5K. Probably not make a difference but at least you could rule that factor out.



It will make a difference. OP if you tracking the Honda go with a 40 grade synthetic on sale for 5K and resample.
 
Originally Posted by dave1251
It will make a difference. OP if you tracking the Honda go with a 40 grade synthetic on sale for 5K and resample.


This car isn't being tracked hard.

I just had a call with Dave, technician at Redline, who said he wasn't concerned with these copper/lead numbers. He said that it's cleaning up , I believe, oxidization. I'm still a bit concerned, but the oil itself was super clean when it was drained and still somewhat amber.

I did a filter/oil change and am running a different synthetic for 1 OCI to see where the wear numbers are with it. The car itself sounds and performs like it should. If this is what the redline is doing, cleaning up some gunk, it would make sense to have higher numbers, but I also noticed that the car starts much slower with redline as opposed to the 2 other synthetics I've used with it, where the cold temps range between 55 and 75 F in the garage. It's possible redline is a bit too thick on startup at these temps for this inline 4. I wouldn't mention this, but there is a marked difference where I wondered sometimes if my battery was dying on startup when I had redline in, and now it's an easy, light start with a different brand of oil.
 
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