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RedLine 10w-30 5k mi; Honda S2000 40k mi #5142029 06/23/19 06:00 PM
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depo26 Offline OP
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This is my first UOA with this car. It's got 40,000 miles on it and compression tests 230 on all 4 cylinders, it comes from the factory at 240. The oil tested, Redline 10w-30, had 5,000 miles on it with an OEM filter. The UOA is showing high copper and lead counts in a ratio of nearly 2/1. Obviously the numbers are high, not sure why or what to do. The car gets driven aggressively on on ramps and in corners but it's not tracked or abused. The rest of the UOA looks great.

I got the car at 35k miles with no history before that.





Screen Shot 2019-06-23 at 15.49.51.png
Last edited by dnewton3; 06/24/19 08:01 AM.
Re: 2006 S2000 - High Copper/Lead [Re: depo26] #5142038 06/23/19 06:06 PM
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wings&wheels Offline
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First run w/ Redline? There is a school of thought that Redline cleans aggressively and the numbers may not be from current wear. There was a thread on here that went into some details on the speculation as to why. I'd run another, shorter interval and test again.

I always thought that 10w-30 was light for that car considering the RoW spec was 5w-40 I believe. I had a 2001 and ran it on Redline 5w-40.

Nice car, enjoy! I had mine when I lived in Silicon Valley, CA is a fun place for a fun car.


'05 Lotus Elise S/C
'85 Land Rover 90 diesel
'74 Triumph TR6
'74 BMW 2002
'72 Land Rover Series III 88"
'99 Porsche 996
'01 Porsche Boxster S (mostly Wife's...)
'19 VW Golf R (Wife's)
Piper Pa28-236


Re: 2006 S2000 - High Copper/Lead [Re: depo26] #5142041 06/23/19 06:09 PM
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Trav Offline
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I suspect the rod bearings are going away, we see some BMW engines with similar numbers and that is almost always the reason. I would drop the pan and look at them and replace before it wears through the copper layer, check the mains also.
At this stage its nothing more than swapping the shells which isn't a big deal. Forget the thicker oil business, once bearing shells get through the lead layer into the copper and clearances begin to increase there is no real way of stopping it.


ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.
Re: 2006 S2000 - High Copper/Lead [Re: Trav] #5142044 06/23/19 06:14 PM
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wings&wheels Offline
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Originally Posted by Trav
I suspect the rod bearings are going away, we see some BMW engines with similar numbers and that is almost always the reason. I would drop the pan and look at them and replace before it wears through the copper layer, check the mains also.
At this stage its nothing more than swapping the shells which isn't a big deal. Forget the thicker oil business, once bearing shells get through the lead layer into the copper and clearances begin to increase there is no real way of stopping it.



Think this is a likely possibility at 40K? Prior owner abuse?? The S2k is fun to rev....


'05 Lotus Elise S/C
'85 Land Rover 90 diesel
'74 Triumph TR6
'74 BMW 2002
'72 Land Rover Series III 88"
'99 Porsche 996
'01 Porsche Boxster S (mostly Wife's...)
'19 VW Golf R (Wife's)
Piper Pa28-236


Re: 2006 S2000 - High Copper/Lead [Re: wings&wheels] #5142056 06/23/19 06:23 PM
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Trav Offline
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Oh yes that is possible, many M3 cars that have been whipped on have done it earlier than that, around 30K on some years 08 IIRC being the worst.
The fact there is high lead numbers not just copper (possible cooler shedding) is a good indicator. The only other possibility but it would be so remote is if solder was used on a copper oil cooler that is shedding along with the copper, this would be a very remote possibility but not impossible.

Being a used car when he got it kind of leaves full disclosure of previous use a dark area. Personally I rather have a look see and find nothing or find the beginning of a issue before it comes back to bite me.

Just wanted to add it could be a thrust bearing wear on manual transmission.

Last edited by Trav; 06/23/19 06:29 PM.

ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.
Re: 2006 S2000 - High Copper/Lead [Re: depo26] #5142068 06/23/19 06:41 PM
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JAG Offline
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Since this is the first UOA and Red Line in the past has seemed to cause high copper or lead values, I would use a different oil and do a UOA on that. If the lead and copper come down a lot, it may indicate the engine is healthy. If you keep using the Red Line and the lead and copper don’t come down, you won’t be able to know if the engine is unhealthy or if the oil is causing those metals to slowly dissolve into the oil.

Re: 2006 S2000 - High Copper/Lead [Re: depo26] #5142093 06/23/19 07:02 PM
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oldhp Offline
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What's the oil pressure look like when hot?


"None of us are getting out here alive...drink that beer...eat that pizza...drive that Hot Rod"
"When others cut you down, remember where they came from."
"I don't run...........I just quietly wait"
Re: 2006 S2000 - High Copper/Lead [Re: depo26] #5142125 06/23/19 07:16 PM
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aquariuscsm Offline
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Just for kicks I would do another uoa on good otc synth 10W30,like PP or QSUD.


1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed,Arctic Pearl(#175 of 300)
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10W30
2012 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L 2.4,auto,San Marino Red
Pennzoil Platinum High Mileage 10W30

Re: 2006 S2000 - High Copper/Lead [Re: depo26] #5142159 06/23/19 07:51 PM
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Cujet Offline
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As a general rule, the S2000 is not known for trashing rod bearings.

Yes, there have been a few examples of this. But for the most part, it's fairly rare.

I ran a turbo S2000 for years with no rod bearing issues at all. 20 pounds boost, 8600RPM redline on a F22 engine. (normally about 8200)

Of course, I was using M1, 15W-50 and letting the engine warm completely before making it work hard.


As a general rule, S2000's seem to have a very, very audible rod knock when the #2 rod bearing is going. That's the one most likely to fail. They are not quiet engines, and they also exhibit a knock like tick from the valvetrain (VTEC lobes) due to lack of spring tension (over time) on the high lift lobe rocker arm. It's pretty much just a noise.

Last edited by Cujet; 06/23/19 07:55 PM.

People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: 2006 S2000 - High Copper/Lead [Re: depo26] #5142183 06/23/19 08:18 PM
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Gebo Offline
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I'd run a different oil for the next OCI with the same filter and do another sample at 5K. Probably not make a difference but at least you could rule that factor out.


'98 LEX LS400 310K
'02 4Runner 250K
'05 Lex LS430 90K
'07 Lex GX470 75K

Shell Gas and Truck 5w-30
Amsoil OE 10w-30
Toyota ATF's and Coolant
Amsoil Gear Oil and Grease
Re: 2006 S2000 - High Copper/Lead [Re: wings&wheels] #5142225 06/23/19 09:03 PM
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depo26 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by wings&wheels
First run w/ Redline? There is a school of thought that Redline cleans aggressively and the numbers may not be from current wear. I always thought that 10w-30 was light for that car considering the RoW spec was 5w-40 I believe. I had a 2001 and ran it on Redline 5w-40.


That's interesting that Redline cleaning up old wear could be the cause, I had no idea. Looks like the common recommendation is to retest but with a different type of oil. I've ordered an OEM filter and will swap in PP or something similar. I used to run redline in another car and I liked it. When I bought this one I changed the oil to redline. I believe the most recent PO was running mobile 1. 10w-30 is recommended spec for this car, 5w-40 if you're in cold climates.

Originally Posted by Trav
Being a used car when he got it kind of leaves full disclosure of previous use a dark area. Personally I rather have a look see and find nothing or find the beginning of a issue before it comes back to bite me.

Just wanted to add it could be a thrust bearing wear on manual transmission.


I have seen reports of S2000s going through rod bearings and even main bearings, but it's not that common and usually due to massive oil starvation, such as being 3 quarts down or extended cornering with r comps.

I'm going to put pulling the pan on the list and do it once I find someone who knows what they're looking for with the rod bearings. In the mean time I'm going to change the oil and filter. Regarding the thrust bearing, my wife drove the car while I was away at work for a week. I rode with her later and was cringing at how she was using the clutch, so perhaps that caused increased wear also.

Originally Posted by JAG
If you keep using the Red Line and the lead and copper don’t come down, you won’t be able to know if the engine is unhealthy or if the oil is causing those metals to slowly dissolve into the oil.


very good point.

Originally Posted by oldhp
What's the oil pressure look like when hot?


The car is basically stock with a conservative tune, I don't have an aftermarket oil pressure gauge, just a dummy light, which has never gone off and I've never had an issue with VTEC lagging, which reportedly happens when you have low oil.

Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
Just for kicks I would do another uoa on good otc synth 10W30,like PP or QSUD.


Doing this.

Re: 2006 S2000 - High Copper/Lead [Re: depo26] #5142277 06/23/19 09:39 PM
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Talent_Keyhole Offline
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I would get the oil pressure specs from Honda and get your oil pressure checked at the block and the cylinder head. You have some serious bearing wear going on.

Re: 2006 S2000 - High Copper/Lead [Re: depo26] #5142281 06/23/19 09:43 PM
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depo26 Offline OP
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Does a high flow cat or a tune affect metals in the oil?

Re: 2006 S2000 - High Copper/Lead [Re: depo26] #5142286 06/23/19 09:51 PM
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Bonz Offline
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Redline seems to use a bit more calcium from what I can tell, and not much Magnesium. However their total is higher than most any other oil I looked at in the UOA section. Would make sense it could have more effect the first time around cleaning things up.

They also use a huge amount of moly. Can moly in high doses work counterproductively to zinc and phosphorus to any extent?

Re: 2006 S2000 - High Copper/Lead [Re: depo26] #5142398 06/24/19 01:08 AM
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I have put 150k miles on our '06 S(just got back from a 8300 mile trip) and it has seen only 10/40(for the first 7 years) and M1 0/40 for the last 6 years. I have seen first hand S's that lost bearings on street drives(back roads) that had full oil but starved for oil on some of the roads we drive. All it takes is one time to kill the bearing when the pressure drops but like you said you don't know how the first owner drove the car.
Did you tune the car or was it done before you bought it? If it was done before you got it, most likely he did track it or drove it on aggressive drives. I have yet to meet an S owner that paid the money for a tune and then drove it like an old lady.

I would also cut the oil filter open to see what it has trapped(you can do this today and not even have to change out the oil). If its clean then put a new filter on and top it off, put 2500 miles on it and get a uoa. You can get the oil you need out of the dip stick hole so you don't have to waste good oil.

Rod


'06 S2000
'00 SSEi sold at 252k miles
'08 Ford F53 V10
'13 Jeep Sahara 2 door
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