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Re: Good lubrication and still Hemi's are failing. [Re: Skippy722] #5210361 09/11/19 06:25 PM
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bdcardinal Offline
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Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by Railrust
If Chrysler is anything like GM, oil changes aren't going to help, it's a design flaw. On GM the lifter has a little pin that engages and disengages from a notch inside the lifter...the notch wears from the pin engagement and forms a ramp, allowing the lifter to collapse as it can't stay in the notch. I'm not sure oil changes will help, unfortunately. It's the design.


That may explain the MDS lifter failures, but what’s causing the regular lifters to fail?


I watched a video on this showing all of the parts involved. I think it is a very large bad batch, or bad design, of roller bearings in the lifter.


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Opinions expressed are my own.
Re: Good lubrication and still Hemi's are failing. [Re: JTK] #5210395 09/11/19 06:59 PM
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Whitestar Offline
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Originally Posted by JTK
Originally Posted by Whitestar
I have a 2019 Ram with a 5.7 Hemi that has lifter clatter on cold starts. I think this is how a roller lifter's needle bearings get trashed in the first place by getting hammered until the lifter gets pumped back up with oil.



I know they can be a real joy, but have you addressed this with a Ram dealer?


I shot that video the day after bringing home from the dealer who had it for 6 days and said they couldn't duplicate the noise.

Re: Good lubrication and still Hemi's are failing. [Re: Skippy722] #5211183 09/12/19 07:15 PM
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Railrust Offline
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Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by Railrust
If Chrysler is anything like GM, oil changes aren't going to help, it's a design flaw. On GM the lifter has a little pin that engages and disengages from a notch inside the lifter...the notch wears from the pin engagement and forms a ramp, allowing the lifter to collapse as it can't stay in the notch. I'm not sure oil changes will help, unfortunately. It's the design.


That may explain the MDS lifter failures, but what’s causing the regular lifters to fail?


Honestly regular hydraulic lifters are prone to failure, some more than others. Dirty oil can play a roll in that, clogging the hole on the lifter. The brackets that hold the lifters in place can become weak and worn, and cause the lifter to move. I do think oil can maybe help a lifter's lifespan, but at least with GM's DOD/AFM systems...that collapsible lifter is subject to wear that I don't think oil changes is going to help. Unless we're talking about clogged ports in the VLOM systems, then I can see good oil maintenance helping.

Re: Good lubrication and still Hemi's are failing. [Re: dnewton3] #5214039 09/16/19 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by dnewton3
Originally Posted by GumbyJarvis
... Police Cruisers are another example of a severe service issue. Any vehicle idling for 12+ hour shifts on the side of the road is going to have its issues.

9/10 it's due to neglect, whether it be due to not adhering to severe service schedules, or driving erratically for no reason other than to look cool.


I respectfully disagree.

After spending 24+ years sitting in GMs, Fords and Chrysler products, I've seen plenty of LEO service in these vehicles. When I started in 1995, the GM Caprice LT1/LT4 engines were fairly stout; never any really big issues with the engines themselves. The Ford CVPIs were like granite; you could not break the drive-train; the 4.6L is a stalwart and there's a reason you see these in taxi service AFTER they'er taken out of police service (can easily run 300k-500k with routine service). The Chargers and Durango's we've had in the last few years? Not up to snuff; not in the least.

In 20 years of sitting in CVPIs, I had only one failure ever; a IAC motor/solenoid went out. Easily replace roadside in 10 minutes; the CoHwy shop foreman drove out to me on a Sunday and replaced it in the field. Other than that, those CVPI cars were the most reliable we ever had. We had a short spat of failed COP ignition failures; coincidentally right after our new leader told us to include pressure washing under-hood as part of our cleaning prep for the monthly vehicle inspection program. After we stopped pressure washing the engines, the COP failures stopped. COPs don't like high-pressure water sprayed at them.

I've been in a Charger during an emergency run; the cam up and ate itself and I had to limp it all the way there. We've lost a lot of cams in our Chargers; we're a mid-sized agency. Our Durangos eat up the 8-spd trannies fairly quickly. We've had water pumps fail way too soon. We've had two officers now locked out of their cars because the body-control computers refused to recognize the key fobs upon approach; not a good thing when you're trying to get to an emergency call!

Our agency sees good routine service for it's vehicles with bulk drum oil and jobber filters. The 4.6L engines never had internal lube-related issues in the 20 years we drove them. They got OFCIs every 5k miles or so; no more than 6k miles. Your comment that "Any vehicle idling for 12+ hour shifts on the side of the road is going to have its issues" is patently incorrect; the 4.6L engines never presented issues related to it's severe use or service factor. The old GM LT1/LT4 engines never had issues either. We've had 6.0L GMs in some Tahoe's; no issues there. Even our Taurus 3.5L engines (n/a; not EB) don't have severe service issues. It's just the Hemi's; they cannot handle the severe duty, even with decent routine service.

The above is all true and factual, if not anecdotal. However, what I'm going to say next is my OPINION ...

The Chrysler products are like the hot blonde chick in high-school. They're fast, good looking, and a hoot to run around with for a while. But eventually, sooner rather than later, she's going to become high-maintenance and not someone you'd want to spend a lot of time with. She'll cost you a lot of money and leave you stranded when you can least afford it. Yes - that's a stereotypical POV that is derogatory. But the real question is this .... Did I offend the blondes, or the Chargers, more?


Regarding the 8HP

I have not heard much negatives on the 8HP - rated for much more torque than the 5.7’s can produce.

I realize, though, it is a complex transmission and produced by FCA under license from ZF (red flag IMHO). What are the failure modes? Miles, symptoms, etc..?

I am impressed with this transmission so far and am hitched up to 5000# for about 50% of my driving in my Durango.


1969 Chevrolet Corvette / 65K / Brad Penn 10w30
2003 Pontiac Vibe / 155K / QSUD 5w30
2008 Toyota Sienna AWD / 160K / QSUD 5w30
2014 Dodge Durango RT 5.7 / 27K / Redline 5w20
Re: Good lubrication and still Hemi's are failing. [Re: Jstew] #5214098 09/16/19 07:56 AM
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OVERKILL Offline
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Originally Posted by Jstew

Regarding the 8HP

I have not heard much negatives on the 8HP - rated for much more torque than the 5.7’s can produce.

I realize, though, it is a complex transmission and produced by FCA under license from ZF (red flag IMHO). What are the failure modes? Miles, symptoms, etc..?

I am impressed with this transmission so far and am hitched up to 5000# for about 50% of my driving in my Durango.


Yeah, I'm curious as well. BTW, I believe it's only the versions that back the V6 (845RE, 850RE) that are made under license, the other units are sourced directly from ZF. The 8HP75 unit behind the 5.7L is the same used behind the 6.4L and the same used in the 1500-series pick-up trucks.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT - Ravenol SSL 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Re: Good lubrication and still Hemi's are failing. [Re: burla] #5214973 09/17/19 07:13 AM
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supton Offline
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I wonder if the 8HP issue might be related to usage--lots of full throttle (or high throttle) off the line? Just wondering if patrol usage might have usage that you guys wouldn't have problems with (lots of gentle highway driving, or at least with the TC locked and low heat buildup).


2011 Toyota Camry, base, 2.5L/6MT, 189k, hers
2010 Toyota Tundra DC, 4.6L/6AT, 153k, ours
1999 Toyota Camry LE, 2.2L/4AT, 211k, his
Re: Good lubrication and still Hemi's are failing. [Re: supton] #5214987 09/17/19 07:28 AM
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OVERKILL Offline
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Originally Posted by supton
I wonder if the 8HP issue might be related to usage--lots of full throttle (or high throttle) off the line? Just wondering if patrol usage might have usage that you guys wouldn't have problems with (lots of gentle highway driving, or at least with the TC locked and low heat buildup).


My SRT gets flogged, lol grin


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT - Ravenol SSL 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Re: Good lubrication and still Hemi's are failing. [Re: OVERKILL] #5215073 09/17/19 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by supton
I wonder if the 8HP issue might be related to usage--lots of full throttle (or high throttle) off the line? Just wondering if patrol usage might have usage that you guys wouldn't have problems with (lots of gentle highway driving, or at least with the TC locked and low heat buildup).


My SRT gets flogged, lol grin

Maybe that's the problem--not enough torque, and not often enough!


2011 Toyota Camry, base, 2.5L/6MT, 189k, hers
2010 Toyota Tundra DC, 4.6L/6AT, 153k, ours
1999 Toyota Camry LE, 2.2L/4AT, 211k, his
Re: Good lubrication and still Hemi's are failing. [Re: OVERKILL] #5215458 09/17/19 05:23 PM
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Skippy722 Offline
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Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Jstew

Regarding the 8HP

I have not heard much negatives on the 8HP - rated for much more torque than the 5.7’s can produce.

I realize, though, it is a complex transmission and produced by FCA under license from ZF (red flag IMHO). What are the failure modes? Miles, symptoms, etc..?

I am impressed with this transmission so far and am hitched up to 5000# for about 50% of my driving in my Durango.


Yeah, I'm curious as well. BTW, I believe it's only the versions that back the V6 (845RE, 850RE) that are made under license, the other units are sourced directly from ZF. The 8HP75 unit behind the 5.7L is the same used behind the 6.4L and the same used in the 1500-series pick-up trucks.


Correct. Though I read FCA adds some extra friction plates/clutches to the 845/850RE.


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2018 Dodge Grand Caravan GT

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Re: Good lubrication and still Hemi's are failing. [Re: burla] #5215517 09/17/19 07:04 PM
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I'm not aware of the lifter problem as I have no friends driving any FCA vehicles. I do have some observations regarding Chrysler Dodge however. Who in their sane mind would buy what the styling department was putting out in the 50's and 60's? I think you'll agree those were some butt ugly cars. Those rear fender fins had cavitation written all over them. Front doors that announced your entry or exit with a screech of galling metal. The rest of the world would have spring loaded door stops that made no sound but cost 40 cents more to make. Torsion bar suspension. You knew exactly how many wet cigarette butts you ran over in a rain shower. Left hand lug nuts on the driver's side (safety first if you're a physics major) The AMC Pacer was a Chrysler design that they sold for $11. Most agree that AMC got gypped. The list goes on but it's in the glove box of a turbine powered car.


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Valvoline 10W-40, WIX Gold
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Re: Good lubrication and still Hemi's are failing. [Re: Piston_slap] #5215541 09/17/19 07:46 PM
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Skippy722 Offline
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Originally Posted by Piston_slap
I'm not aware of the lifter problem as I have no friends driving any FCA vehicles. I do have some observations regarding Chrysler Dodge however. Who in their sane mind would buy what the styling department was putting out in the 50's and 60's? I think you'll agree those were some butt ugly cars. Those rear fender fins had cavitation written all over them. Front doors that announced your entry or exit with a screech of galling metal. The rest of the world would have spring loaded door stops that made no sound but cost 40 cents more to make. Torsion bar suspension. You knew exactly how many wet cigarette butts you ran over in a rain shower. Left hand lug nuts on the driver's side (safety first if you're a physics major) The AMC Pacer was a Chrysler design that they sold for $11. Most agree that AMC got gypped. The list goes on but it's in the glove box of a turbine powered car.


I’d buy one of these shrug There were tons of cars with crazy styling back then, wasn’t just Chrysler.


A23F4A33-DCBB-4E23-9166-884FC993AA5E.jpeg
Last edited by Skippy722; 09/17/19 07:48 PM.

2016 Chrysler 300S v6
2018 Dodge Grand Caravan GT

Slight Mopar obsession
Re: Good lubrication and still Hemi's are failing. [Re: OVERKILL] #5215584 09/17/19 08:52 PM
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AVB Offline
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Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Jstew

Regarding the 8HP

I have not heard much negatives on the 8HP - rated for much more torque than the 5.7’s can produce.

I realize, though, it is a complex transmission and produced by FCA under license from ZF (red flag IMHO). What are the failure modes? Miles, symptoms, etc..?

I am impressed with this transmission so far and am hitched up to 5000# for about 50% of my driving in my Durango.


Yeah, I'm curious as well. BTW, I believe it's only the versions that back the V6 (845RE, 850RE) that are made under license, the other units are sourced directly from ZF. The 8HP75 unit behind the 5.7L is the same used behind the 6.4L and the same used in the 1500-series pick-up trucks.


Before 2019 it was the 8HP70 behind the 5.7 and I think the 66RFE behind the 6.4. The 8HP75 is a upgrade for 2019. It is a decent transmission, but I see about as many break as any other transmission.

We had a Deputy Sheriff's car that they had run long enough with a tapping lifter that the fork for the roller spread and would not let the lifter come out of it's bore. We had to pull the cam and drop the lifter out through the bottom. I think spalling of the cam may be the cause of some failures, but the majority of the failed lifters that I have seen the needle bearing were trashed but the rollers looked fine.

Re: Good lubrication and still Hemi's are failing. [Re: JTK] #5215595 09/17/19 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by JTK
Originally Posted by Whitestar
I have a 2019 Ram with a 5.7 Hemi that has lifter clatter on cold starts. I think this is how a roller lifter's needle bearings get trashed in the first place by getting hammered until the lifter gets pumped back up with oil.



I know they can be a real joy, but have you addressed this with a Ram dealer?

That is considered normal, they will take you out on the lot and show you that they do that brand new. The dealer won't do anything until the ticking becomes constant.

Re: Good lubrication and still Hemi's are failing. [Re: AVB] #5215847 09/18/19 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by AVB


Before 2019 it was the 8HP70 behind the 5.7 and I think the 66RFE behind the 6.4. The 8HP75 is a upgrade for 2019. It is a decent transmission, but I see about as many break as any other transmission.


Yes, that's probably worth noting that the 8HP70 was used in earlier years and it was 2019+ that got the 75.

2015+ Chargers with the 6.4L got the 8HP70, same with the Grand Cherokee. Mine is a 2016. The Supercharged 6.2L received the 8HP90, save the one one in the GC TrackHawk, which got the 8HP95.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT - Ravenol SSL 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Re: Good lubrication and still Hemi's are failing. [Re: burla] #5215850 09/18/19 07:50 AM
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The 5.7L Grand Cherokee in my sig doesn't have Hemi tick yet, but before a trailer hauling road trip I dumped some MoS2 into the oil for kicks as I had it sitting on the shelf and it did quiet the valvetrain down a lot which I did not expect. I do notice that it was quieter with the previous Castrol 0w40 I had in it than the PPHM 5w30 it has in it now. Once it warms up it is perfectly silent, but cold starts do get a bit noisy sometimes.


2013 Jeep Grand Cherokee TrailHawk 5.7L (144k) - PPHM 5w30, Wix 57899
2009 BMW 328i (48k) - Castrol Edge Euro 0w40, MANN HU816X
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