Lead replacement additives for Classic cars

[FCD]

The other day we had a debate on fuels in a Classic Ford group i'm in.

Most people seem to run Lead replacement additives in their cars, i haven't for a long time though as i honestly thought it was a load of bull...

In the US / N.A this probably isn't much of a problem, as lead was banned much earlier than in Europe.
In most of Europe new cars began to be made with engines that could run on unleaded around 1985, catalytic converters did not become commonplace or mandatory until 1990-1993 in the then EEC.
In fact leaded gasoline was only phased out in most of Europe between 1999-2003.

My question is, do these "Lead Replacement" additives really work? i haven't noticed any symptoms of valve seat recession running plain 98 RON E5 gasoline in my Capri, which being made in 1975 has no emissions equipment and was made to be run on Super Leaded ( 97 RON ) gasoline, also known as Four Star in the UK.

The common symptoms of VSR are loss of compression, rough idling and the exhaust valve clearance closing up excessively on engines with mechanical lifters, as the valve effectively digs itself into the valve seat, i have none of these symptoms.

Some people instead of using Lead replacement additives add around 1% 2 stroke oil to their fuel, supposedly it helps neutralize the Ethanol in the gasoline ( we only have E5 here ) and also lubricate the valve seats.

 

[wings&wheels]

The UK historic motor vehicle association did thorough testing a while back and determined that a few, but not all of the lead replacement additives truly worked. Most of the ones that worked, IIRC, were sodium based and, of them, only Redline is available in the US. I use Redline lead substitute in my TR6, BMW and LR SIII, as well as occasional sumped 100LL from my and my friends' airplanes.

Adding 2 stroke may be an upper cylinder lubricant, but I cannot see how it would prevent valve recession; it won't build a barrier between the seat and valve head to prevent the micro welding that causes VSR. Nothing truly 'neutralizes' ethanol and completely prevents phase separation, although some additives are better than others. One of the US boat mags did a comparison a while back.

I will try to find links to both studies.

Summary of UK FBHVC study
UK study

 

[Rat407]

It is my understanding that if it was a daily driver and you put the miles on then you might need a lead replacement. But if it is a garage queen and you don't put much for mileage on then there isn't an need for it.

My understanding is the effects of no let come into play with at a high mileage like 100k or so. So one would ask if you have a weekend driver, how long would it take to get to that mileage where you might notice a difference.

 

[MolaKule]

I know of nothing in 2-cycle oils that lubricates valve seats.

Tetraethyl lead compounds were used to reduce knock and to raise the octane ratings of gasoline.

It did leave a lead deposit on valve seats, valve stems, spark plugs, etc.

What is there in ethanol fuels to "Neutralize?"

Methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (MMT) or its ferrocene brothers, are used to raise octane values and does deposit a powder on valve seats, valve stems, spark plugs, etc. Whether it really cushions mechanical impulse forces is open for debate.

 

[wings&wheels]

Originally Posted by Rat407
It is my understanding that if it was a daily driver and you put the miles on then you might need a lead replacement. But if it is a garage queen and you don't put much for mileage on then there isn't an need for it.

My understanding is the effects of no let come into play with at a high mileage like 100k or so. So one would ask if you have a weekend driver, how long would it take to get to that mileage where you might notice a difference.


Sustained high rpm or high load driving conditions could lead to VSR regardless of total miles. The full UK study (wish I could find a link to the entire report), again if I remember, found ~3500 rpm as a threshold of sorts,

 

[Convert]

In the old days AMACO sold white gas effectively unleaded gas in the 50s-70s .
Cars did t seen to have valve recession.

My Moto Guzzi motorcycle was/is designed for leaded gas .
Not available.
So i mostly use Marvel Mystery Oil.
No valve recession in over 500,000 miles.
Sometimes I'm able to find Lead substitute at Walmart, or tractor supply.
But that might be regional
TOMB

 

[Linctex]

Originally Posted by MolaKule
I know of nothing in 2-cycle oils that lubricates valve seats.


I think the ones that have a lot of high-density "Bright Stock" might help ( *IF* the engine doesn't have very high EGT's )

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted by Convert
In the old days AMACO sold white gas effectively unleaded gas in the 50s-70s .
Cars did t seen to have valve recession.


...So i mostly use Marvel Mystery Oil.
No valve recession in over 500,000 miles.
Sometimes I'm able to find Lead substitute at Walmart, or tractor supply.
But that might be regional
TOMB


You do realize Marvel Mystery Oil was used as a Lead Scavenger?

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted by MolaKule
...Methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (MMT) or its ferrocene brothers, are used to raise octane values and does deposit a powder on valve seats, valve stems, spark plugs, etc. Whether it really cushions mechanical impulse forces is open for debate.


I should warn you that if you do oil analysis while using these octane boosters, your analyses will be skewed toward:

Higher Iron content (for the ferrocene type additives),

Higher Manganese content (for the MMT type additives),

Higher Potassium content (for the Potassium Carboxylate type additives),

Higher Sodium content (for the Sodium Sulfonate type additives).

 

[barryh]

I've been running my 79 BMW motorcycle for 12 years with out using lead substitute additive. I take very careful valve clearance readings at every service and have seen no evidence of valve seat recession. I think the problem was overblown in that valve seat recession is not inevitable but perhaps it is likely to be more of a problem at sustained high revs.

I happen to dose the fuel with TCW3 2 stroke oil but for a different reason. It helps the engine to run on 95 Ron fuel without pinging. I don't understand the chemistry of that effect but I've done it enough years to know that it works.

 

[Rat407]

Originally Posted by wings&wheels
Originally Posted by Rat407
It is my understanding that if it was a daily driver and you put the miles on then you might need a lead replacement. But if it is a garage queen and you don't put much for mileage on then there isn't an need for it.

My understanding is the effects of no let come into play with at a high mileage like 100k or so. So one would ask if you have a weekend driver, how long would it take to get to that mileage where you might notice a difference.


Sustained high rpm or high load driving conditions could lead to VSR regardless of total miles. The full UK study (wish I could find a link to the entire report), again if I remember, found ~3500 rpm as a threshold of sorts,


Makes sense, but then how many weekend riders take their ride out and drive it at those RPMs every weekend? I would say most don't so regular fuel of today's standards should be just fine. Unless they are driving in 3rd gear down the interstate for 5+ hrs at a shot.

 

[wings&wheels]

Originally Posted by Rat407
Originally Posted by wings&wheels
Originally Posted by Rat407
It is my understanding that if it was a daily driver and you put the miles on then you might need a lead replacement. But if it is a garage queen and you don't put much for mileage on then there isn't an need for it.

My understanding is the effects of no let come into play with at a high mileage like 100k or so. So one would ask if you have a weekend driver, how long would it take to get to that mileage where you might notice a difference.


Sustained high rpm or high load driving conditions could lead to VSR regardless of total miles. The full UK study (wish I could find a link to the entire report), again if I remember, found ~3500 rpm as a threshold of sorts,


Makes sense, but then how many weekend riders take their ride out and drive it at those RPMs every weekend? I would say most don't so regular fuel of today's standards should be just fine. Unless they are driving in 3rd gear down the interstate for 5+ hrs at a shot.


Agree, most folks should be fine. If I had an older iron head little British car that I ran on the hiway more than occasionally, and I do, I would use some substitute. My TR6 turns ~3,300 rpm at 70 and my Series III at max cruise of ~55 is also turning pretty quickly (haven't done the calc yet and no tach) so I use it in them.

 

[larrymoencurly]

GM once found that just running 5 gallons of leaded gasoline provided lifetime protection against valve damage, until the engine was overhauled. I don't know what "lifetime" means, but I assume it's at least 100,000 miles.

 

[Silk]

Originally Posted by Rat407

how many weekend riders take their ride out and drive it at those RPMs every weekend? .


When I take my 1974 Moto Guzzi out it's WOT and reline all the time. Always back roads, it's hardly seen a main road in it's life.

 

[FCD]

So the verdict is that some of those additives work but others do not?

Locally the one that most people use is one made by Wynn's , seems to be potassium based according to the SDS, would this be worth using?

 

[FCD]

This is what it has according to the SDS

Hidrocarburos, C10-C13, n-alcanos, isoalcanos,
cÃclicos, aromáticos (2-25%)
(N° CE) 919-164-8
(REACH-no) 01-2119473977-17
75 - 90 STOT RE 1, H372
Asp. Tox. 1, H304
Aquatic Chronic 3, H412
potassium 1,2-bis(2-
ethylhexyloxycarbonyl)ethanesulphonate
(N° CAS) 7491-09-0
(N° CE) 231-308-5
(REACH-no) 01-2119919740-39
5 - 10 Skin Irrit. 2, H315
Eye Dam. 1, H318
Reaction mass of 2-tert-butyl-4,6-dimethylphenol and
4-tert-butyl-2,5-dimethylphenol
(N° CE) 911-254-5
(REACH-no) 01-2119537289-29
1 - 2,5 Acute Tox. 4 (Oral), H302
Skin Irrit. 2, H315
Eye Irrit. 2, H319
Skin Sens. 1, H317
STOT RE 2, H373
Aquatic Acute 1, H400
Aquatic Chronic 1, H410
2,6-di-terc -butil-p -cresol (N° CAS) 128-37-0
(N° CE) 204-881-4
(REACH-no) 01-2119565113-46
0,1 - 1 Aquatic Acute 1, H400
Aquatic Chronic 1, H410

 

[Lubener]

Last time I used a lead additive in my 1940 Ford was around 1980. Been fine so far.

 

[wings&wheels]

Originally Posted by FordCapriDriver
So the verdict is that some of those additives work but others do not?

Locally the one that most people use is one made by Wynn's , seems to be potassium based according to the SDS, would this be worth using?


If you choose to use one, I'd go with one that the FBVHC documented as being effective. You have more choices over there...Castrol Valvemaster, a couple by Millers IIRC..

 

[FCD]

Originally Posted by wings&wheels
Originally Posted by FordCapriDriver
So the verdict is that some of those additives work but others do not?

Locally the one that most people use is one made by Wynn's , seems to be potassium based according to the SDS, would this be worth using?


If you choose to use one, I'd go with one that the FBVHC documented as being effective. You have more choices over there...Castrol Valvemaster, a couple by Millers IIRC..


I can order Valvemaster online for a not bad price so might just go with that.