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Re: Viscosity Modifiers II [Re: Gokhan] #5139254 06/20/19 01:38 PM
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MolaKule Offline
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Indopol seems to think that PIB polymers are shear resistant:

Quote
BENEFITS

Excellent thickeners and shear stable polymers.
Good lubricity, high film strength and viscosity indices.
Low pour points, volatility and toxicity.
Good tack and anti-throw properties.
Hydrophobic, non-corrosive, non-drying, non-staining.
Burns cleanly, leaving no residue at elevated temperatures.
Wide molecular weight and viscosity range.


They also have this chart to show thickening efficiency verses BrightStock:



PIB verses Brightstock.jpeg
Last edited by MolaKule; 06/20/19 01:56 PM.

Dr. Larry Fleinhardt: "You know, that term "dark matter" has always perplexed me. It fallaciously implies that the 95% of our universe that cannot be observed is some amorphous, eventless emptiness."
Amita Ramanujan: "I'm sorry?"
Dr. Larry Fleinhardt: "I guess it's all too human. Instead of admitting to the present limits of our knowledge, we just declare things to be unknowable." NUMB3RS
Re: Viscosity Modifiers II [Re: Gokhan] #5139267 06/20/19 01:54 PM
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MolaKule Offline
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Originally Posted by Gokhan
However, it turns out that the additive package in gear oils is only about 1 - 2% of the total composition; so, that's not what shears.


It's more like 3.5% to 10% by weight:

Typical Gear Oil Formulations

Originally Posted by Gokhan
According to Exxon Mobil Advanced synthetic base stocks brochure (not the blending guide), monograde gear oils seem to use all sorts of VIIs (PMA, PIB, EPC, ultra-high-viscosity PAO, etc.) and they permanently shear substantially. See the bottom of Page 7:


Under the Metallocene category of PAO's it says:

Quote
Performance benefits
include:
• High viscosity index (VI)
• Excellent low temperature properties
• Good shear stability for
enhanced durability


Originally Posted by Gokhan
https://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/en/library/Asset/99EA9EECD9E640CCB78B1C8B443DC067

It looks like they did use a VII that undergoes a lot of permanent shear.


We can't know that since the oil did not go through extensive analytical assessments.


Last edited by MolaKule; 06/20/19 03:43 PM.

Dr. Larry Fleinhardt: "You know, that term "dark matter" has always perplexed me. It fallaciously implies that the 95% of our universe that cannot be observed is some amorphous, eventless emptiness."
Amita Ramanujan: "I'm sorry?"
Dr. Larry Fleinhardt: "I guess it's all too human. Instead of admitting to the present limits of our knowledge, we just declare things to be unknowable." NUMB3RS
Re: Viscosity Modifiers II [Re: MolaKule] #5139405 06/20/19 05:06 PM
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Gokhan Offline OP
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Originally Posted by MolaKule
Indopol seems to think that PIB polymers are shear resistant:

Hmm, not according to Ergon (see Page 12):

Advancements in bright-stock refining technology by Ergon (PDF)

Or NACO (see the paragraph named bright-stock replacement):

NACO synthetic base oils with emphasis on the 20.5 cSt (23 cSt nominal) alkylated naphthalene (AN)


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Re: Viscosity Modifiers II [Re: Gokhan] #5140189 06/21/19 01:55 PM
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MolaKule Offline
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Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Indopol seems to think that PIB polymers are shear resistant:

Hmm, not according to Ergon (see Page 12):

Advancements in bright-stock refining technology by Ergon (PDF)


I sent an email to Tom requesting to see if they had ever done an SSI test between their new naphthenic derived BS and PIBS, and what pibs were tested.

Originally Posted by Gokhan


The NACO oils are simply blends of AN's and high viscosity PAO's but I thought you said PAO's had poor shear stability?

Janex also disagrees with your assessment of PIB's Shear Stability:

Quote
POLYISOBUTYLENE (PIB)
Polyisobutylene (PIB) and Polybutylene are liquid polymers produced by the cationic polymerisation of isobutylene and raffinate-1 respectively. We offer a comprehensive product range with molecular weight from 450 to 90,000 MW.

Polyisobutene CAS 9003-27-4 / EC 204-066-3 - Polybutene CAS 9003-29-6 / EC 203-452-9


Properties:

Low gas or moisture permeability
Low / non-toxicity & colourless / transparent
Water white colour and odourless
High thickening efficiency
Good shear stability
Clean burning / low deposit
Good electrical insulation
Oxidation stability to light/UV and air
Tackifier/adhesive properties
Low temperature properties


https://www.janex.ch/en/products/polyisobutylene-pib?qs=products/polyisobutylene-pib


Dr. Larry Fleinhardt: "You know, that term "dark matter" has always perplexed me. It fallaciously implies that the 95% of our universe that cannot be observed is some amorphous, eventless emptiness."
Amita Ramanujan: "I'm sorry?"
Dr. Larry Fleinhardt: "I guess it's all too human. Instead of admitting to the present limits of our knowledge, we just declare things to be unknowable." NUMB3RS
Re: Viscosity Modifiers II [Re: MolaKule] #5140200 06/21/19 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by MolaKule
The NACO oils are simply blends of AN's and high viscosity PAO's but I thought you said PAO's had poor shear stability?

Janex also disagrees with your assessment of PIB's Shear Stability:

High-viscosity PAO can have poor shear stability, and the permanent shear-stability index (SSI) is inversely proportional to the viscosity of the PAO. Although, there is the m-PAO that is a lot more shear-stable.

It's not my assessment really. Different companies are making different claims. The permanent SSI will depend on the viscosity of the PIB and perhaps the manufacturer as well. If some are saying the PIB has poor permanent SSI, at least in some cases it must be true.


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(NA) Re: Viscosity Modifiers II [Re: Gokhan] #5140208 06/21/19 02:34 PM
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MolaKule Offline
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Here are some interesting conclusions from an older paper on base oil viscosity and VII's:


Base Oil Viscoitiy and VII by Lubrizol India - HTHS and SSI


Dr. Larry Fleinhardt: "You know, that term "dark matter" has always perplexed me. It fallaciously implies that the 95% of our universe that cannot be observed is some amorphous, eventless emptiness."
Amita Ramanujan: "I'm sorry?"
Dr. Larry Fleinhardt: "I guess it's all too human. Instead of admitting to the present limits of our knowledge, we just declare things to be unknowable." NUMB3RS
(NA) Re: Viscosity Modifiers II [Re: MolaKule] #5140239 06/21/19 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by MolaKule
Here are some interesting conclusions from an older paper on base oil viscosity and VII's:


Base Oil Viscoitiy and VII by Lubrizol India - HTHS and SSI

I'm sorry to say this but this is very poor-quality research. The authors are all over the place and there is no systematic scientific approach. I would entirely ignore their conclusions.

HTHS viscosity doesn't depend on the VII content? Really? One of the main uses of the VII is to adjust and tune the HTHS viscosity.


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(NA) Re: Viscosity Modifiers II [Re: Gokhan] #5140437 06/21/19 08:29 PM
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Looking at the Lubrizol India paper more carefully, I see that they are not claiming that the HTHS viscosity does not increase with the VII content, which I thought what they were claiming and called it absurd. So, it is fine.

However, looking at Table 5, I see some unusual behavior.

First, the KV and HTHS viscosity columns are mislabeled and they should be switched -- actually KV (cSt) is on the left and HTHS viscosity (cP) is on the right.

The rather unusual behavior I see is the collosal increase in the viscosity (colossal thickening power) -- 341.6% for OCP and 1860.7% for SIP. You don't see that in commercial oils. For example that would turn a KV100 = 6 cSt base oil into a KV100 = 118 cSt oil in the case of SIP. As a comparison SAE 60 KV100 < 26.1 cSt. Then, they see some variation of the thickening power with the base-oil viscosity as well as the VII content. I am not sure if this would be seen in practical applications of VIIs, where the thickening power is below about 140% in the extreme commercial cases -- 5W-50 and 10W-60 oils. Therefore, the nonlinear results (nonlinear in the VII content and base-oil viscosity) may be because of the unusually high VII content.


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(NA) Re: Viscosity Modifiers II [Re: Gokhan] #5140506 06/21/19 10:06 PM
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MolaKule Offline
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Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Here are some interesting conclusions from an older paper on base oil viscosity and VII's:


Base Oil Viscoitiy and VII by Lubrizol India - HTHS and SSI

I'm sorry to say this but this is very poor-quality research. The authors are all over the place and there is no systematic scientific approach. I would entirely ignore their conclusions.

HTHS viscosity doesn't depend on the VII content? Really? One of the main uses of the VII is to adjust and tune the HTHS viscosity.


The paper does have a section in which they show the Experimental Procedure they used and the basis for their data tables.

I agree editing of Figure 5's Text could have been better but again, they are stating the results dervived from their Experimental Procedure whether you agree with those results or not.

Last edited by MolaKule; 06/21/19 10:33 PM.

Dr. Larry Fleinhardt: "You know, that term "dark matter" has always perplexed me. It fallaciously implies that the 95% of our universe that cannot be observed is some amorphous, eventless emptiness."
Amita Ramanujan: "I'm sorry?"
Dr. Larry Fleinhardt: "I guess it's all too human. Instead of admitting to the present limits of our knowledge, we just declare things to be unknowable." NUMB3RS
(NA) Re: Viscosity Modifiers II [Re: Gokhan] #5140548 06/21/19 11:29 PM
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As I said in my previous post, they are not claiming that HTHS doesn't vary with VII content as I first thought, so, it's fine. Instead they are making some claims about the HTHS thickening rate (increase per VII content) and permanent shear.

The data is probably OK and the results are somewhat interesting. As I also said in my previous post, the problem is that the thickening is so large (as large as a factor of 20) that the results don't really apply to commercial oils, in which the thickening is usually a factor of 2 or less (100% or less thickening) and virtually always under a factor of 2.5 (150% thickening). Nonlinear (in VII content and base-oil viscosity) behavior they observe, while interesting, probably doesn't appear for the range of the VII content used in commercial motor oils.


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TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
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