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Just rewards. Vettel, as usual, was being outdriven, made a mistake under pressure, tried to make up for it with a dirty move, and acted liked his usual spoiled brat when he was called out on it.

I will say however, the stewards gave the wrong penalty. They should have forced Vettel to give up the position, then let them duke it out to the end. With DRS from behind, it would have been likely that he could have overtaken. The reaction from the Sky announcers has been pathetic.
 
Whether he intended to or not, Vettel made a mistake that ended up with him rejoining the track and obstructing the racing line.

Video also shows he steered to the right after he rejoined the track.

Also congrats to Hamilton. That's 3 in a row now and it was the pressuring of Vettel that forced the mistake.
 
Originally Posted by A_Harman
Oh, tough call that, on Vettel's "unsafe" reentry to turn 4. I slightly come down on the side of the stewards.

I say the stewards are full of it, and again, this shows why there needs to be permanent stewards. I'm the first guy to say that if someone has both wheels outside the white line, it's a track limits violation and something should be done automatically. However, that hasn't been the practice for years. Vettel did what he had to to regain control of the car. Even standing on the brakes would have done him little to no good.

CharlieBauer correctly notes he steered right after rejoining. Had he not done so and tried to keep left to give room, that rear end would have snapped right and they'd still be sweeping up carbon fiber from a Ferrari and a Benz wreck in Montreal. Ironically, that's probably what Sebastian should have done in retrospect.

The rules have to be enforced the same each time. This was pretty silly. The powers that be and the fans complain there's no passing. Someone tries to pass or defend for the lead, there's an unknown risk of a penalty, and that's simply unfair. Vettel didn't take the grass as a shortcut. He didn't use the loss of control as an intentional tool to stymie Hamilton. He went across the grass, and almost careened into the wall, and did what he could to save it.

Many of Bernie's TV deals are coming up for renewal. You'd think they'd try to annoy fans as little as possible, given how TV is already in trouble.

bdcardinal: I know there's some sort of live timing on the F1 site, plus there is a premium membership there. I've never used the site while watching, though, to see what it actually provides in comparison to what you showed.
 
I've been involved in professional racing for years. Rules are rules. If you or a team don't like a certain rule, work to change it or stop competing.

I finally got the chance to watch the 'incident', and Vettel's little temper tantrum.

The bottom line is Vettel made a mistake, ran off the track, and came back on the track onto the racing line. I don't think he had a choice, as he was essentially out of control, and trying to regain control. That doesn't change the fact that HE MADE THE MISTAKE. Throwing a temper tantrum like a 5 year old, was just a pathetic display.
 
The issue isn't the rule. It's the uneven application. Vettel has gone on record stating he doesn't like track limits rules. I do. But we don't have a situation where either position is in place. There's little doubt there was a violation of a rule. The application and enforcement of said rule is always questionable. Hamilton said he would have done the exact same thing if the situation were reversed.

If this were thirty years ago, a fan would have bounced a can of Molson Canadian off of Chase Carey's or Jean Todt's head during the podium ceremony.
 
I'm a big Lewis fan but I agree that Seb got robbed of the win here.

BTW, my wife and I were at the event on Saturday and watched qualifying. It was our first F1 event ever and we loved it! We had general admission but found a good spot near the hairpin to watch.
 
Very tough call, no two incidents are identical that's why as spectators we always feel the rules are not applied consistently.

My take on this is that the single element that determines whether the action is punishable or not was Vettel in control of the car or not, or was he intentional or not. I slowed down the replay on my PVR almost frame by frame. I don't seem to find a point where he was looking at the mirror to try to find where Hamilton was and squeeze him.

Of course, one can argue that the racing line dictates a car must be on the exit curb which is the outside or to the right of Vettel and by logic he would defend that side. Even without making visual confirmation he would have instinctively let the car slide to that side or as the stewards put it rejoin in an unsafe manner.

But this argument is weak because he could have put himself in jeopardy, he could have slid more than he wanted and hit the wall or collect the car behind. If Vettel were to slow down enough on the grass more before rejoining, he could lose control of the car and hit the left side wall. Remember this is a street style track, not Abu Dhabi where you can land a C130 on the run-off.

Regardless, in that particular spot if any driver spins the car off the track they would want to get back on to the track as soon as possible and the next logical outcome is little to no traction and hence an over steer which Vettel corrected and left a car width of room as Karun Chandhok pointed out on Sky. If this is punishable a lot of moves by Max in his early days are punishable too.
 
Originally Posted by Garak
Hamilton said he would have done the exact same thing if the situation were reversed.


And that the move deserved a penalty.

I tell you another thing, if it were Hamilton (and it wouldn't be since he doesn't crack under pressure like Vettel), and he acted the way Vettel did afterwards, the barage of criticism about his behavior would be far greater and we know why that would be.

Palmer does a good job of explaining why the penalty decision was correct:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/48583803
 
It was Hamilton that radio'd his team to tell them to notify officials so Hamilton can't throw his hands up and act like "don't blame me, I didn't make the decision". Now this part I don't know, but if Mercedes hadn't said something, would they still look at it ? Maybe, maybe not ? I presume they would still look at it on their own but since a racer basically requested a look, they gave Seb's actions more scrutiny.
 
IDK, looks to me like Vettel clearly screwed up bad and the penalty seems appropriate.
Maybe if he had been far enough ahead when he drove across the grass that he had no effect upon Ham when he returned to the course I could see his loss of speed as being penalty enough, but he almost really pasted Ham...don't really care if Vettel was in control or not at that point as his own poor driving had put him in that situation in the first place, although I'd say he was a jerk if he intentionally tried to force Ham into the wall. Vettel really put Ham in a bad spot as the latter basically had to slam his brakes on to avoid them both not finishing the race...

It does stink to see a race winner determined that way, though, no question. Vettel staying on the course would have avoided the unsatisfying finish...
 
Call me crazy but howany laps transpired after that event??? 4-5 right... If Hamilton was truly faster then he had PLENTY of time to get around the car in front of him. If that event happens on the last lap then that a whole different story... Ok... Said event happens... But you have got a good number of laps to make a move and pass that guy... You do it.... Don't wait for the officials to make a "move" for you... That's sissified.
 
I've read some comments from a couple of recent F1 drivers. They say the same thing I did. Rules are rules. Vettel cracked under pressure, made a mistake, and reentered the track in an unsafe manner. He made the mistake and broke the rule. Ergo he earned the penalty. Lewis won the race fair and square.

If the drivers or teams don't like a rule, they can work to change it, or stop racing.

In the racing series I participate in, some have left the sport because of rules they didn't like. Some proposed rules have been shelved because of their unpopularity.

But on any given race day, there are rules in affect. Break those rules, and you'll pay the price.

Behaving like a spoiled 5 year old won't change the outcome.
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48583803

I tend to agree with Jolyon. Seb opened the steering after he had caught the oversteer and moved towards the wall on the right. According to a source I read somewhere he did look in his mirror. As Jolyon says, it's a natural, instinctive move - defend your position. He left a car's width, then drifted further over.

I'm not a Hamilton fan particularly and I agree the whole thing leaves a bad taste in the mouth, but as many have said - rules are rules; you don't simply ignore the ones you don't agree with. The mistake should have cost Vettel - it's another pressure-forced error which is starting to define his Ferrari career. In fact I think Hamilton did really well not to collect Vettel and take them both out.
 
Originally Posted by bbhero
Call me crazy but howany laps transpired after that event??? 4-5 right... If Hamilton was truly faster then he had PLENTY of time to get around the car in front of him. If that event happens on the last lap then that a whole different story... Ok... Said event happens... But you have got a good number of laps to make a move and pass that guy... You do it.... Don't wait for the officials to make a "move" for you... That's sissified.

Looked to me like Ham had a great chance to pass Vettel when the latter messed up by going over the grass, but then Vettel used the wall to prevent a pass and force Ham to lose even more energy than he had.
I'm sure a lot of passes occur when the guy in front makes that little mistake and opens a window, part of being faster is exploiting the other guys' weaknesses and not just the raw performance of the machine combined with the ability to pilot it well through an empty course....
I'm not a race expert in the slightest and respect the variety of opinions here, but the video seems pretty clear here to my novice eyes.
 
With respect to what Palmer or Rosberg said, there is a significant number of ex-drivers who believe Vettel should not have been penalized. Rosberg's opinion doesn't count, to put it bluntly, because I'm sure he made his decision before watching the video. He hasn't had a positive thing to say about Vettel in three years. He has his head so far up Hamilton's backside that I would suggest had he been that way from the start, he'd still be driving and having a good relationship with Hamilton. I don't have a problem with the penalty if it were enforced across the board, though there still are valid reasons to dispute the penalty. As for Vettel's tantrum versus how it would be treated if Hamilton did the same, I went on record before and said he should have been made to sit out a race or two after his freak out about Charlie Whiting. In the end, I believe Vettel has an argument as to why the penalty isn't warranted and there is a technical defence, and I can also see that there is a case for the penalty. My point is it should not have been handed out, given what's been allowed in the past. Again, track limits violations should be, in my view, sternly enforced, but that's not what the FIA has done for a few years already.

Originally Posted by hallstevenson
It was Hamilton that radio'd his team to tell them to notify officials so Hamilton can't throw his hands up and act like "don't blame me, I didn't make the decision". Now this part I don't know, but if Mercedes hadn't said something, would they still look at it ? Maybe, maybe not ? I presume they would still look at it on their own but since a racer basically requested a look, they gave Seb's actions more scrutiny.

As much as it pains me, I have to defend Hamilton on this. That's what the drivers have to do. They have to justify what they do and complain about what others do - this business of talking like lawyers, as Vettel put it. As it is, we've seen incidents over the years where it isn't clear who should be penalized but someone gets one anyhow, and the drivers are in the unfortunate position of having to plead a case briefly on the air.

I have a real problem with team radio and the issues it creates when we're exposed to it. We have to remember that FOM chooses what to broadcast on the air and they do it to make a show. I don't believe teams even have the authority to release extra portions of the exchanges (except by transcript), because of broadcast rights. FOM creates a climate and has created issues before. Look at what they did to manufacture the issue that caused team radio to be severely curtailed. FOM chose to broadcast a bunch of cryptic and technical radio exchanges about drivers being talked through changing steering wheel settings. Of course, commentators are going to notice this and they talk about what's said. FOM releases more of these, and all of a sudden, we're presented with an issue of drivers not driving the cars but being coached by engineers. FIA panics and bans all kinds of communication even to the point that reliability is endangered and there are even safety concerns. Drivers and teams get all annoyed and the FIA realizes the error and goes back to the old way of doing things. However, we don't hear nearly as many oddball exchanges about wheel settings between drivers and engineers. We hear some, but not like we did when FOM created this issue. The drivers and engineers are still going through settings, but we don't hear about it, because FOM chooses not to broadcast it.

Similarly, FOM can choose to release all of a driver's freak outs (and most tend to do it often enough) and whine fests or keep them hidden as they choose. They use team radio snippets to create drama (Hamilton's incessant tire complaints in Monaco) or comedy (Kimi is always good for something somewhere).
 
I'm clearly speaking after that EVENT....

Pass the car in front of you.... He had 4 laps to get it done... Do be a panzy... And wait for the "officials" to do it for you.

If this was last lap... Whole different story. No doubt.


Like at Sonoma when Ricky Rudd moved Davey Allison out of the way in turn 11... And Ricky really really moved him out of the way... Way, way, way more aggressive than this whole deal here in this F1 race. Heading to the white flag... NASCAR made the decision to show Ricky Rudd the black flag instead of the checkers...then Davey came through and got the checkered flag... At least that made more sense than this garbage.

That guy had PLENTY of time to actually pass him... No where near the same as what happened in NASCAR at Sonoma....
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by bbhero
That guy had PLENTY of time to actually pass him... No where near the same as what happened in NASCAR at Sonoma....


I'm not sure you quite get the aerodynamic difference between an F1 car and a Nascar tractor and the limitations that puts on the F1 cars.

Nascar can actually follow a car close enough to line up a pass without totally destroying a set of tyres. An F1 car can't get that close for fear of Ricciardoing a Verstappen when they lose all downforce on the front end.

Passes need a huge power difference, a will to "win it or bin it" and outside assistance from something like DRS. Hamilton had exactly one of those three at that circuit. He pushed Vettel until he snapped.

I don't necessarily agree with the way it went down, but rules are rules. Roll on 2021 regs and cars that are supposed to be able to follow without falling into an aerodynamic hole.
 
He still had 4 plus laps.... Plenty of time.

Again.. if this happens one the last lap. . Ok. It's a lot different. Or if it happens on the next to the last lap before taking a white flag... Ok I can buy that too...

If his car was faster... Which everything seemed to indicate that potential... Pass him... And he probably could have done so. But he wanted a "official" to do it for him...

It wasn't like he lost say 2,3 or 4 seconds to Vettel in that incident.. if that had happened then it would have been a very different circumstance. I could look at it differently had that been the case. But that is not what happened here... He really did not lose hardly any time.
 
In 20/20 hindsight, if I were handling Ferrari strategy, I'd have immediately told Vettel to give up the place, and he would have retaken it on the straight. That no one thought of it at the time, period, shows you the penalty was in left field.

Edd Straw made a very telling point. He stated it's not even apparent that Hamilton had to move further over than he normally did there. People abuse that part of the track all the time, and Hamilton may or may not have been squeezed. It wasn't conclusive at all. Sure, he had to brake. That's what happens when a car is in front of you.

Gary Anderson, normally a fierce critic of Vettel, points out that that last thing a five time champion should be doing, when seeing a car clatter across the grass from left to right, is to try to grab the gap on the right. It's a recipe for disaster.

The stewarding is terrible and there's no consistency. Max didn't get penalized at Austria, which is the way it should be. However, in comparison to this episode, the stewarding is nonsensical. Enforce track limits or don't enforce track limits.

The stewarding policy about track limits seems to be something akin to, well, track limits are only a problem when they're a problem.
 
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