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2011 Crown Vic LX, 4.6L 112k, 7.5k on Havoline HM 5W20 #5135090
06/15/19 04:54 PM
06/15/19 04:54 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 10,024
Central Washington
Colt45ws Offline OP
Colt45ws  Offline OP

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 10,024
Central Washington
This is my friends ride, and I do all the maintenance on it, at least until he moves to Texas in a little over a month.
This oil was in service a little over a year. He does a lot of flying, working out of state, so the car sits a lot.

Code
Iron		26
Chromium	0
Nickel		1
Aluminum	12
Copper		3
Lead		0
Tin		0
Silicon		10
Sodium		5
Potassium	0
Molybdenum	184
Boron		24
Magnesium	12
Calcium		2261
Phosphorous	742
Zinc		876
Fuel		<1 - Estimated
Soot		<.1
Water		<.1 - FTIR
Visc		[email protected]
TBN		2.25
Oxid		21
Nitr		12


-Colton
2002 Ford Crown Vic PI 207k, Ex-Kootenai County, ID Unit #42
Down for engine swap
2003 Ford Crown Vic PI 86k
Pennzoil Conv HM 5W30, Fram XG2
Re: 2011 Crown Vic LX, 4.6L 112k, 7.5k on Havoline HM 5W20 [Re: Colt45ws] #5135093
06/15/19 04:59 PM
06/15/19 04:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 2,338
CO
JLTD Offline
JLTD  Offline

Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 2,338
CO
Looks ok to me.

Older vehicle, over 100k and going to TX? I'd use 10w-30 and run it a little longer.


I use the overseas manual to choose my oil viscosity.

Using AMSOIL

Hers: 2008 Jeep Liberty 149k, SS5w30/Amsoil

His: 2015 4Runner 55k, SS 5w20/Amsoil

Re: 2011 Crown Vic LX, 4.6L 112k, 7.5k on Havoline HM 5W20 [Re: Colt45ws] #5135136
06/15/19 06:13 PM
06/15/19 06:13 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 8,022
Indianapolis, IN
dnewton3 Offline
Global Moderator
dnewton3  Offline
Global Moderator

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 8,022
Indianapolis, IN
Your friend's 4.6L may have an issue with the timing chain guides wearing. There is elevated Fe and Al; the two signs of wear metals associated with the guides and chain. The Fe is at almost 4ppm/1k miles and the Al is just under 2ppm/1k miles. Those are both about 2x higher than what we'd expect to see for a healthy engine.

These 4.6L engines are generally very low wearing. Here is a link to my UOAs for my two Grand Marquis (2005 and 2007).
As you can see, the Fe and Al on a "wear rate" are much lower, and it does not matter which grade or base stock of oil is used.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/5011812/5
My Fe is typically at or less than 1ppm/1k miles and the Al is so low it's typically just noise. And I run 10k mile OFCIs.

It's not time to panic for your friend's car. This is only one UOA. Most certainly, I'd start doing the UOAs every 5k miles and if you see the wear rates uptick even more, it's time for action! He needs to be aware that it's likely cam chain guide wear. It's not that hard to look at it; pull off the valve covers and then use a bore scope to down down at the chain guides.


The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: 2011 Crown Vic LX, 4.6L 112k, 7.5k on Havoline HM 5W20 [Re: dnewton3] #5135137
06/15/19 06:18 PM
06/15/19 06:18 PM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 189
CA
BLND1 Offline
BLND1  Offline

Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 189
CA
It’s a 120k mile 4.6. Bump it to 5w30 and keep running it until it dies. The repair is likely more than the vehicles worth.

Originally Posted by dnewton3
Your friend's 4.6L may have an issue with the timing chain guides wearing. There is elevated Fe and Al; the two signs of wear metals associated with the guides and chain. The Fe is at almost 4ppm/1k miles and the Al is just under 2ppm/1k miles. Those are both about 2x higher than what we'd expect to see for a healthy engine.

These 4.6L engines are generally very low wearing. Here is a link to my UOAs for my two Grand Marquis (2005 and 2007).
As you can see, the Fe and Al on a "wear rate" are much lower, and it does not matter which grade or base stock of oil is used.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/5011812/5
My Fe is typically at or less than 1ppm/1k miles and the Al is so low it's typically just noise. And I run 10k mile OFCIs.

It's not time to panic for your friend's car. This is only one UOA. Most certainly, I'd start doing the UOAs every 5k miles and if you see the wear rates uptick even more, it's time for action! He needs to be aware that it's likely cam chain guide wear. It's not that hard to look at it; pull off the valve covers and then use a bore scope to down down at the chain guides.

Re: 2011 Crown Vic LX, 4.6L 112k, 7.5k on Havoline HM 5W20 [Re: Colt45ws] #5135152
06/15/19 06:38 PM
06/15/19 06:38 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,763
Maricopa Arizona
dave1251 Online happy
dave1251  Online Happy

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,763
Maricopa Arizona
I agree with the chain wear just advise and hope for the best. I learned how to really drive on a Police Interceptor Crown Vic. They can't keep up with the new Chargers but they still are fun to drive.


make the inside of your engine oil cap white.
don't use.
Re: 2011 Crown Vic LX, 4.6L 112k, 7.5k on Havoline HM 5W20 [Re: dnewton3] #5135328
06/15/19 10:16 PM
06/15/19 10:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 10,024
Central Washington
Colt45ws Offline OP
Colt45ws  Offline OP

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 10,024
Central Washington
Originally Posted by dnewton3
Your friend's 4.6L may have an issue with the timing chain guides wearing. There is elevated Fe and Al; the two signs of wear metals associated with the guides and chain. The Fe is at almost 4ppm/1k miles and the Al is just under 2ppm/1k miles. Those are both about 2x higher than what we'd expect to see for a healthy engine.

These 4.6L engines are generally very low wearing. Here is a link to my UOAs for my two Grand Marquis (2005 and 2007).
As you can see, the Fe and Al on a "wear rate" are much lower, and it does not matter which grade or base stock of oil is used.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/5011812/5
My Fe is typically at or less than 1ppm/1k miles and the Al is so low it's typically just noise. And I run 10k mile OFCIs.

It's not time to panic for your friend's car. This is only one UOA. Most certainly, I'd start doing the UOAs every 5k miles and if you see the wear rates uptick even more, it's time for action! He needs to be aware that it's likely cam chain guide wear. It's not that hard to look at it; pull off the valve covers and then use a bore scope to down down at the chain guides.

Fe was higher last time, 39ppm in 5500 miles, so its wearing better, whatever caused it to have a high Fe. Al was 5ppm that report, so that went up slightly on a ppm/mile basis so idk.


-Colton
2002 Ford Crown Vic PI 207k, Ex-Kootenai County, ID Unit #42
Down for engine swap
2003 Ford Crown Vic PI 86k
Pennzoil Conv HM 5W30, Fram XG2
Re: 2011 Crown Vic LX, 4.6L 112k, 7.5k on Havoline HM 5W20 [Re: BLND1] #5135465
06/16/19 06:45 AM
06/16/19 06:45 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 9,114
Waco, TX
Linctex Online content
Linctex  Online Content

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 9,114
Waco, TX
Originally Posted by BLND1
It’s a 120k mile 4.6. Bump it to 5w30 and keep running it until it dies. The repair is likely more than the vehicles worth.


Yep, when it hits 200,000 miles he can switch to 15W-40
grin2


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: 2011 Crown Vic LX, 4.6L 112k, 7.5k on Havoline HM 5W20 [Re: Colt45ws] #5135689
06/16/19 12:23 PM
06/16/19 12:23 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 8,022
Indianapolis, IN
dnewton3 Offline
Global Moderator
dnewton3  Offline
Global Moderator

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 8,022
Indianapolis, IN
Originally Posted by Colt45ws
Originally Posted by dnewton3
Your friend's 4.6L may have an issue with the timing chain guides wearing. There is elevated Fe and Al; the two signs of wear metals associated with the guides and chain. The Fe is at almost 4ppm/1k miles and the Al is just under 2ppm/1k miles. Those are both about 2x higher than what we'd expect to see for a healthy engine.

These 4.6L engines are generally very low wearing. Here is a link to my UOAs for my two Grand Marquis (2005 and 2007).
As you can see, the Fe and Al on a "wear rate" are much lower, and it does not matter which grade or base stock of oil is used.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/5011812/5
My Fe is typically at or less than 1ppm/1k miles and the Al is so low it's typically just noise. And I run 10k mile OFCIs.

It's not time to panic for your friend's car. This is only one UOA. Most certainly, I'd start doing the UOAs every 5k miles and if you see the wear rates uptick even more, it's time for action! He needs to be aware that it's likely cam chain guide wear. It's not that hard to look at it; pull off the valve covers and then use a bore scope to down down at the chain guides.


Fe was higher last time, 39ppm in 5500 miles, so its wearing better, whatever caused it to have a high Fe. Al was 5ppm that report, so that went up slightly on a ppm/mile basis so idk.


Because the Fe is coming down and the Al is going up, it's probably the cam chain tension-er guides. The steel chain is having it's way with the Al backed guides which have nylon surfaces and are known to crack and shed off large chunks. Once the nylon is gone, the steel sees some abuse, but eventually has it's way with the aluminum backer; hence Fe rises and then falls, and the Al keeps going up. I cannot assure you this is the issue; there are other potential places for problems, but this is by far the most likely cause. And like I said, it can be checked by scoping down the front cover.

I would disagree with the thicker oil recommendation; that isn't going to make this problem go away. And, being a 2011 CVLX with 120k on it, it's probably worth a fair amount presuming it's in decent shape, so the repair at a reputable shop is not out of the question. The parts are not expensive; you can get kits for around $150 or less, depending upon what level of part replacement you want to get into. Your friend may do as he sees fit.

Last edited by dnewton3; 06/16/19 12:26 PM.

The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: 2011 Crown Vic LX, 4.6L 112k, 7.5k on Havoline HM 5W20 [Re: Colt45ws] #5136125
06/16/19 08:59 PM
06/16/19 08:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 10,024
Central Washington
Colt45ws Offline OP
Colt45ws  Offline OP

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 10,024
Central Washington
I think I still have his filter. Ill grab it from the shop and cut it. My 02 had this problem and it was very obvious looking at the sparkles in the filter.


-Colton
2002 Ford Crown Vic PI 207k, Ex-Kootenai County, ID Unit #42
Down for engine swap
2003 Ford Crown Vic PI 86k
Pennzoil Conv HM 5W30, Fram XG2
Re: 2011 Crown Vic LX, 4.6L 112k, 7.5k on Havoline HM 5W20 [Re: dnewton3] #5139589
06/20/19 08:25 PM
06/20/19 08:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 15
FL USA
DJapplecrisp Offline
DJapplecrisp  Offline

Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 15
FL USA
I have an 04 MGM that I'm running Castrol edge 5w-20 in. Is there anything I can do to prevent or reduce the amount of timing chain/tensioner wear?

Last edited by DJapplecrisp; 06/20/19 08:25 PM.
Re: 2011 Crown Vic LX, 4.6L 112k, 7.5k on Havoline HM 5W20 [Re: Colt45ws] #5139699
06/20/19 10:16 PM
06/20/19 10:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 10,024
Central Washington
Colt45ws Offline OP
Colt45ws  Offline OP

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 10,024
Central Washington
Not really. Most Modular V8s will make hundreds of thousands of miles, 400-500k is not uncommon before the tensioners wear out and this problem occurs.
A very low percentage of the population they give out around the 100k mile mark. I know in one case I believe there was a bad run of tensioners around year 2000 and there was a bunch of cases of those going bad but beyond that I havent heard a convincing reasoning for why certain ones fail early while most make it through the life of the vehicle.
My 2002 has over 200k miles and was a ex sheriff cruiser so I suspect it was run hard a LOT so I give that one the benefit of the doubt that it was just it's time.

Last edited by Colt45ws; 06/20/19 10:20 PM.

-Colton
2002 Ford Crown Vic PI 207k, Ex-Kootenai County, ID Unit #42
Down for engine swap
2003 Ford Crown Vic PI 86k
Pennzoil Conv HM 5W30, Fram XG2
Re: 2011 Crown Vic LX, 4.6L 112k, 7.5k on Havoline HM 5W20 [Re: Colt45ws] #5158941
07/12/19 06:39 PM
07/12/19 06:39 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 10,024
Central Washington
Colt45ws Offline OP
Colt45ws  Offline OP

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 10,024
Central Washington
Update: I cut this oil filter. There was no aluminum particulate in it. It was 100% normal.


-Colton
2002 Ford Crown Vic PI 207k, Ex-Kootenai County, ID Unit #42
Down for engine swap
2003 Ford Crown Vic PI 86k
Pennzoil Conv HM 5W30, Fram XG2
Re: 2011 Crown Vic LX, 4.6L 112k, 7.5k on Havoline HM 5W20 [Re: Colt45ws] #5159767
07/13/19 06:41 PM
07/13/19 06:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 27,749
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 27,749
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted by Colt45ws
This is my friends ride, and I do all the maintenance on it, at least until he moves to Texas in a little over a month.

By the way, are you going to try to convince him to leave it behind? wink


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: 2011 Crown Vic LX, 4.6L 112k, 7.5k on Havoline HM 5W20 [Re: Colt45ws] #5159911
07/13/19 09:28 PM
07/13/19 09:28 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 8,022
Indianapolis, IN
dnewton3 Offline
Global Moderator
dnewton3  Offline
Global Moderator

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 8,022
Indianapolis, IN
Originally Posted by Colt45ws
Update: I cut this oil filter. There was no aluminum particulate in it. It was 100% normal.

Just because you cannot see it, does not mean it's not there. UOAs can see material up to about 5um, all else is smaller than that; your eyes cannot see that small so it does not surprise me that you didn't see stuff in the filter. The UOA is telling you something; there's Fe and AL in elevated levels; something is amiss.

I realize it's your friend's ride. He may or may not have the time/money/care to do anything about it, until it's too late.


The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
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