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Otto Aviation "Celera 500L" #5134730
06/15/19 08:32 AM
06/15/19 08:32 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,551
Jupiter, Florida
Cujet Offline OP
Cujet  Offline OP

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Posts: 8,551
Jupiter, Florida
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...PnCICVh9TpRQvDaSiR2o2xKUKAQlqDd5s4uOYn8o

Quote: "the Otto Aviation Celera 500L, is definitely focused on potentially game-changing high-efficiency flight that has the potential to disrupt the aerospace marketplace"

"It is unclear from the available information whether the Celera 500L uses one or two A03 engines. The FAA's profile describes the aircraft as a "single engine," but patent documents had described two engines driving a single propeller. Of course, they had also said these would be diesel engines with multi-stage turbochargers and intercoolers, the latter of which redirect heat to improve efficiency and keep the entire system cool while the former would theoretically provide enough power even at very high altitudes where super-efficient flight can be realized"

"The patent goes on to describe a notional aircraft that would cruise between 460 and 510 miles per hour at an altitude of up to 65,000 feet, yielding a fuel efficiency rate of between 30 and 42 miles per gallon"





Powered by (possibly 2) 500HP diesel engines, although it looks like just one engine. I have to wonder...... It's a neat shape, and clearly there is a bit of drag reduction by having such a clean shape. However, the twin pusher Piaggio Avanti is similarly configured and achieved little in the way of better efficiency.

The thing that always comes up is that we've done remarkably well optimizing shapes for low drag. Today's modern aircraft have incredibly low Cd

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Last edited by Cujet; 06/15/19 08:48 AM.

People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: Otto Aviation "Celera 500L" [Re: Cujet] #5134737
06/15/19 08:36 AM
06/15/19 08:36 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,633
Arkansas
Win Offline
Win  Offline

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Posts: 4,633
Arkansas
Nice to see that it will use a V12 - if it ever flies ...


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Re: Otto Aviation "Celera 500L" [Re: Cujet] #5134745
06/15/19 08:45 AM
06/15/19 08:45 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,935
Jacksonville, FL
FlyNavyP3 Offline
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Jacksonville, FL
A single prop and cruise at 65,000 feet? On 500-1000 HP?

Seems like a pipe dream to me.


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Re: Otto Aviation "Celera 500L" [Re: Cujet] #5134767
06/15/19 09:08 AM
06/15/19 09:08 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 541
northern NY
Driz Offline
Driz  Offline

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Posts: 541
northern NY
If the old adage “ if it looks good it will fly good” has any truth to it they’re in trouble....

Re: Otto Aviation "Celera 500L" [Re: Driz] #5134783
06/15/19 09:38 AM
06/15/19 09:38 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,551
Jupiter, Florida
Cujet Offline OP
Cujet  Offline OP

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Jupiter, Florida
Originally Posted by Driz
If the old adage “ if it looks good it will fly good” has any truth to it they’re in trouble....


It's funny you bring that up. There is no question that form follows function in aviation. Clearly the guys building this thing believe a teardrop fuselage is a functional shape.

What's interesting is that the conventional tube is incredibly hard to beat, with a Cd so low (0.022 for example) , there just is not much to be gained by changing fuselage shape.

The G650ER, a true high altitude performer, it's form looks like you'd expect for a 51,000 foot, Mach 0.925 aircraft.

[Linked Image]




Brings another thing to mind. Diesel engines are more efficient and will result in better MPG. However diesel/jet fuel is heavier. Aircraft carry fuel by weight/mass. Miles per gallon is simply economic criteria, when comparing piston engines. Today's piston aircraft engines have fantastic BSFC numbers (consumption by weight) . Gas powered engines burn more fuel than diesels when measured by gallons, but when measured by weight, the numbers are quite close.

Piston airliners were very efficient and achieved passenger MPG that rival the best jets today. The diesel has some serious disadvantages, including reluctance to re-start at any altitude above 14,000 feet. Compression ignition is funny that way.... Another distinct aero diesel disadvantage is the requirement to carry power during descent, as they tend to flame out when driven by the prop in a common high altitude descent.

Last edited by Cujet; 06/15/19 10:08 AM.

People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: Otto Aviation "Celera 500L" [Re: Cujet] #5134790
06/15/19 09:48 AM
06/15/19 09:48 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,633
Arkansas
Win Offline
Win  Offline

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Arkansas
I think it looks okay.

Seems like a lot of airplane for one V12 that is probably derived from an automotive V12 - hard to imagine developing one from scratch for aero application in this age.

Wonder what the coffin corner / envelope is at 55,000 to 65,000 feet with those little wings and engine?


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Re: Otto Aviation "Celera 500L" [Re: Cujet] #5134795
06/15/19 10:05 AM
06/15/19 10:05 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,309
Marshfield , MA
andyd Offline
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Marshfield , MA
At 11 miles high, there is enough O2 to fire a 1000 HP diesel to 500 mph and get 40 mpg ? WOW!


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Re: Otto Aviation "Celera 500L" [Re: Cujet] #5134832
06/15/19 11:06 AM
06/15/19 11:06 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,710
Fort Lauderdale, FL
DoubleWasp Offline
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Fort Lauderdale, FL
No kidding. Diesels consume a LOT of air. I guess if you have compound turbos sucking and compressing enough of it, there's enough oxygen to get by?

Is is going to be a true diesel burning diesel fuel, or one of those "diesels" burning JP on the diesel ignition process?

No matter what, Chuck Yeager is going to to be livid that they repainted his plane and are taking it for joyrides.


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Re: Otto Aviation "Celera 500L" [Re: Cujet] #5134881
06/15/19 12:04 PM
06/15/19 12:04 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,551
Jupiter, Florida
Cujet Offline OP
Cujet  Offline OP

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Jupiter, Florida
Of note, liquid cooled, turbocharged, intercooled, piston engines have a LOT of cooling drag. One look at those huge ducts on top is all you need to know with regard to the prospect of actual high speed flight.

This drag issue presents a problem in high altitude, high speed flight. With coolant temperatures around 200-220 degrees F, the surface area required for heat transfer is roughly triple that of equivalent air cooled engines. Before you bring up the P51, it's cooling radiator and Meredith effect, the very same effect works even better with the higher temperatures of air cooled engines.


People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: Otto Aviation "Celera 500L" [Re: Cujet] #5134925
06/15/19 01:05 PM
06/15/19 01:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,910
PV Az @ 5000'
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PV Az @ 5000'
Is it normal to not have windows in a prototype or is the airframe complete just skinned over early on? Tiny little tires too.


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Re: Otto Aviation "Celera 500L" [Re: Cujet] #5135129
06/15/19 06:06 PM
06/15/19 06:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,787
OH
fdcg27 Online content
fdcg27  Online Content

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Posts: 16,787
OH
With those thin small chord wings, where will the fuel go?
While the thing has obviously been taxied, will it actually ever fly?
The fin looks awfully tall for an aircraft that'll never see asymmetrical thrust.
Overall, this looks like an intriguing concept, but I don't see how its performance claims can be met.
There are other very fast prop aircraft actually flying, but they have lots more installed power and high fuel consumption at speed.
What here merits a patent?


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Re: Otto Aviation "Celera 500L" [Re: fdcg27] #5135139
06/15/19 06:27 PM
06/15/19 06:27 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,551
Jupiter, Florida
Cujet Offline OP
Cujet  Offline OP

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Originally Posted by fdcg27
I don't see how its performance claims can be met.


In a nutshell, the performance claims cannot be met using the chosen propulsion system.

There are some interesting tricks that can be employed to optimize performance. The very first item of note is the choice of prop style. Any conventional prop becomes incredibly inefficient at higher speeds. While there are some reasonably fast prop planes, the Piaggio Avanti for example, they are pouring 1600 HP into each of the well designed pusher props. Even so, the practical limit seems to be 400Kts TAS maximum speed and a cruise speed of 318Kts.

The other is to eliminate cooling drag entirely.

This can be done by the use of gas turbine engines or by mechanically forcing air through the radiators and intercoolers.

Here is a prop design that can achieve near jet speeds:

[Linked Image]

Last edited by Cujet; 06/15/19 06:28 PM.

People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: Otto Aviation "Celera 500L" [Re: Cujet] #5135379
06/16/19 12:05 AM
06/16/19 12:05 AM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 955
Ca USA
BusyLittleShop Offline
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Posts: 955
Ca USA
Reminds me of the Bell X1... and it probably has about the same chance to make it in general aviation as the X1... I see more hope in the RED V6 and V12 Diesels...

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


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Re: Otto Aviation "Celera 500L" [Re: Driz] #5136182
06/16/19 10:26 PM
06/16/19 10:26 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 251
Cold Lake, Alberta, Canada
Surestick Offline
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Cold Lake, Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted by Driz
If the old adage “ if it looks good it will fly good” has any truth to it they’re in trouble....


Tell that to the designers of the Gee Bee. ;-)

Re: Otto Aviation "Celera 500L" [Re: Cujet] #5139486
06/20/19 06:23 PM
06/20/19 06:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,787
OH
fdcg27 Online content
fdcg27  Online Content

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OH
We both know that there are piston propeller aircraft that can operate at near jet speeds and they were flying more than seventy years ago.
Not very efficient and not offering long engine life, but they could do it.
There is also the Soviet era but still in service swept wing Bear bomber, which uses contrarotating props to absorb the power of its turboprop engines.
It was built and operated as an airliner as well.
The UDF engine you depict has an unacceptably high noise profile for operations from any airport one might consider operating from.


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