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Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 [Re: Solarent] #5133836
06/14/19 07:07 AM
06/14/19 07:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,353
New England
Virtus_Probi Offline
Virtus_Probi  Offline

Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,353
New England
Originally Posted by weasley
Originally Posted by OilUzer
Didn't some experts say in Europe they don't have/use d1g2 or d2 and they have no lspi issues?
I think they use thicker and/or higher hths oil!

On the contrary - GM brands here issued a service bulletin a while back requiring certain gasoline-engined cars to use dexos1g2 to mitigate LSPI. This was slightly inconvenient as most oils here were dexos2, with few d1g2 options available.


VERY interesting info...thank you!
I have been guessing that we haven't heard much about problems with DIT engines using A3/B4 oils because of the higher ZDDP levels, as that additive is a strong LSPI quencher...but that it is only a guess.

Originally Posted by Solarent
Both options have LSPI testing - GM uses the GMOD, and SN+ uses the Sequence IX which is a Ford engine.
Eliminating LSPI is an interesting part of this question. Lubrizol has been out in the market talking about LSPI protection on used oil (both the tests only
look at LSPI protection on new oil).
Lubrizol Podcast on LSPI

The updated -B1 Ford oil specs also include an LSPI test in a 2.0l EcoBoost, but I don't know how that test compares to the SN+ one.


2014 Forester XT, 100000 miles
Last Change;
M1 10W30 HM SN+
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter
Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 [Re: Virtus_Probi] #5133844
06/14/19 07:13 AM
06/14/19 07:13 AM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 958
Ohio
Solarent Offline
Solarent  Offline

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 958
Ohio
The 2.0L Ecoboost is the same engine in the Sequence IX.

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 [Re: Solarent] #5133848
06/14/19 07:19 AM
06/14/19 07:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,353
New England
Virtus_Probi Offline
Virtus_Probi  Offline

Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,353
New England
Originally Posted by Solarent
The 2.0L Ecoboost is the same engine in the Sequence IX.

Thanks...do you know if the actual LSPI tests are similar between SN+ and the -B1s?


2014 Forester XT, 100000 miles
Last Change;
M1 10W30 HM SN+
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter
Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 [Re: Virtus_Probi] #5133926
06/14/19 09:22 AM
06/14/19 09:22 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 11,355
1/2 hr N.E. of Detroit
Triple_Se7en Offline
Triple_Se7en  Offline

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 11,355
1/2 hr N.E. of Detroit
Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi

I have been guessing that we haven't heard much about problems with DIT engines using A3/B4 oils because of the higher ZDDP levels, as that additive is a strong LSPI quencher...but that it is only a guess.

Are all the A3/B4 oils low Calcium (-1100) and high Magnesium (+500)?

Last edited by Triple_Se7en; 06/14/19 09:23 AM.

19 Hyundai SantaFe 2.4GDI Castrol Edge 5w30 / NAPA Mann-Hummel filter / 6oz Liqui-Moly Treatment
04 Colorado 3.5 Castrol Edge 0W40 Euro & K&N filter
03 Malibu 3.1 QS / Valv Syn 5w30 mix Fram EG filter
Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 [Re: Triple_Se7en] #5134005
06/14/19 11:42 AM
06/14/19 11:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,353
New England
Virtus_Probi Offline
Virtus_Probi  Offline

Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,353
New England
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi

I have been guessing that we haven't heard much about problems with DIT engines using A3/B4 oils because of the higher ZDDP levels, as that additive is a strong LSPI quencher...but that it is only a guess.

Are all the A3/B4 oils low Calcium (-1100) and high Magnesium (+500)?

I have seen a number of VOAs for M1 0W40 FS A3/B4 and they have all been very high in calcium (maybe 2800 ppm) and had little magnesium. I believe the M1 0W40 formulation before that was similar.
I think Castrol 0W40 A3/B4 is quite a bit lower than M1 in calcium but I'm not completely sure of that.

There was a summary of oil additive effects on LSPI from one of the additive makers (Infineum??) that showed a plot with the occurrence of LSPI really plummeting as the ZDDP concentration was swept not far beyond the typical SN/GF5 levels...I actually bought a bottle of Rislone ZDDP additive and was adding a bit at every change before d1G2 came along! Yes, I know I'm ridiculous...


2014 Forester XT, 100000 miles
Last Change;
M1 10W30 HM SN+
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter
Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 [Re: Virtus_Probi] #5134012
06/14/19 11:50 AM
06/14/19 11:50 AM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 381
Pullman Wa.
Corollaman Offline
Corollaman  Offline

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 381
Pullman Wa.
Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted by Solarent
The 2.0L Ecoboost is the same engine in the Sequence IX.

Thanks...do you know if the actual LSPI tests are similar between SN+ and the -B1s?

That's what I was wondering. Will all these sn+ oils meet the ford -B1 spec? All of the "conventional" oils from supertech, chevron, etc meet sn+.

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 [Re: yowps3] #5134230
06/14/19 04:55 PM
06/14/19 04:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 197
California
Direct_Rejection Offline
Direct_Rejection  Offline

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 197
California
Thank you Solarent for the prompt link to this vital podcast.

From Part I...
SN+/D1G2 >> SN/D1/G1.
It is eye opening to learn how important the changes are for insurance against LSPI.

From Part II...
The culprit is the combination of small amounts of motor oil, with unburned fuel mixed in, in the crevice volume (between the first ringland and the top piston ring,) along with piston deposits.
LSPI is complex, as stated, but there is also greater specificity here.

It sure sounds like there is a direct correlation between fuel dilution and LSPI.
My maintenance plan with a boosted GDI engine would surely involve the cheapest SN+ oil, Chevron Supreme comes to mind, and OCIs which are quite short, 3k miles !!
Also, I glean that recommended viscosity should be used over going thicker and extending OCis. JMO.


2018 Tacoma 2.7L
EDGE HM 0W20
@ 131k miles
Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 [Re: Direct_Rejection] #5134259
06/14/19 05:35 PM
06/14/19 05:35 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 381
Pullman Wa.
Corollaman Offline
Corollaman  Offline

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 381
Pullman Wa.
Originally Posted by Direct_Rejection
Thank you Solarent for the prompt link to this vital podcast.

From Part I...
SN+/D1G2 >> SN/D1/G1.
It is eye opening to learn how important the changes are for insurance against LSPI.

From Part II...
The culprit is the combination of small amounts of motor oil, with unburned fuel mixed in, in the crevice volume (between the first ringland and the top piston ring,) along with piston deposits.
LSPI is complex, as stated, but there is also greater specificity here.

It sure sounds like there is a direct correlation between fuel dilution and LSPI.
My maintenance plan with a boosted GDI engine would surely involve the cheapest SN+ oil, Chevron Supreme comes to mind, and OCIs which are quite short, 3k miles !!
Also, I glean that recommended viscosity should be used over going thicker and extending OCis. JMO.

I'm using Chevron Supreme 5w30 SN+ and doing short oil changes (4,000 miles) in my 2016 Fusion 2.0, with a Motorcraft oil filter it's like $17 total.

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 [Re: yowps3] #5134470
06/14/19 09:58 PM
06/14/19 09:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 875
sonoma
burla Offline
burla  Offline

Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 875
sonoma
A short interval with either will smash the other one assuming a long interval. Ise a stable weight oil like 5w20, even better.

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 [Re: Virtus_Probi] #5134527
06/14/19 11:27 PM
06/14/19 11:27 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 959
WA
OilUzer Offline
OilUzer  Offline

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 959
WA
Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted by weasley
Originally Posted by OilUzer
Didn't some experts say in Europe they don't have/use d1g2 or d2 and they have no lspi issues?
I think they use thicker and/or higher hths oil!

On the contrary - GM brands here issued a service bulletin a while back requiring certain gasoline-engined cars to use dexos1g2 to mitigate LSPI. This was slightly inconvenient as most oils here were dexos2, with few d1g2 options available.


VERY interesting info...thank you!
I have been guessing that we haven't heard much about problems with DIT engines using A3/B4 oils because of the higher ZDDP levels, as that additive is a strong LSPI quencher...but that it is only a guess.
...



a3/b4 oils have higher hths as well.

Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 [Re: Virtus_Probi] #5134546
06/15/19 12:11 AM
06/15/19 12:11 AM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,839
Down Under
SR5 Offline
SR5  Offline

Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,839
Down Under
Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi

I have been guessing that we haven't heard much about problems with DIT engines using A3/B4 oils because of the higher ZDDP levels, as that additive is a strong LSPI quencher...but that it is only a guess.

Are all the A3/B4 oils low Calcium (-1100) and high Magnesium (+500)?

I have seen a number of VOAs for M1 0W40 FS A3/B4 and they have all been very high in calcium (maybe 2800 ppm) and had little magnesium. I believe the M1 0W40 formulation before that was similar.
I think Castrol 0W40 A3/B4 is quite a bit lower than M1 in calcium but I'm not completely sure of that.

There was a summary of oil additive effects on LSPI from one of the additive makers (Infineum??) that showed a plot with the occurrence of LSPI really plummeting as the ZDDP concentration was swept not far beyond the typical SN/GF5 levels...I actually bought a bottle of Rislone ZDDP additive and was adding a bit at every change before d1G2 came along! Yes, I know I'm ridiculous...


Yes, I recall those plots, and I think it was Infineum. They showed that LSPI events increased linearly with increasing Ca add, hence the SN+ and D1G2 move to replace some Ca with Mg detergent. To decrease Ca levels for the same final TBN.

However they also showed that LSPI events decreased exponentially with increasing ZDDP, it was a powerful quencher of LSPI.

Most Euro A3/B4 oils that I know still have a full Ca detergent package with no or little Mg. However A3/B4 oils don’t have a restriction on their upper Phos (and therefore ZDDP) levels, while ILSAC-SN oils do have an upper limit imposed. Most SN / SN+ and GF-5 oils have about 700 ppm ZDDP while a typical A3/B4 Euro oil will have about 1000 ppm ZDDP. Recall a non-GF5 viscosity grade, like 5W40 has no restriction and so can be SN & A3/B4, it’s the thinner grades that are restricted.

I think when Europe was running full-SAPS A3/B4 oils with high ZDDP levels, they had no LSPI issues even with full Ca detergent packages. But recently they have moved to mid-SAPS C3 oils (like Dexos2) for both petrol (gas) and Diesel engines. This is probably where the problem with LSPI in Europe started as a C3 oil is restricted in the upper level of Sulphated Ash (SA%) permitted, and given that ZDDP adds to the SA% they tend to make Euro C3 oils with the same ZDDP levels as American GF-5 oils, but without swapping out some Ca for Mg and hence the start of seeing LSPI in Europe.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Castrol Edge 10W30 A5/B5 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 [Re: OilUzer] #5134552
06/15/19 12:26 AM
06/15/19 12:26 AM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,839
Down Under
SR5 Offline
SR5  Offline

Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,839
Down Under
Originally Posted by OilUzer

a3/b4 oils have higher hths as well.

Both ACEA A3/B4 and ACEA C3 are high HTHS oils (>= 3.5 cP) they differ in their SAPS level (SA%).
A Dexos2 oil is also a C3 oil (mid-SAPS), but can’t be an A3/B4 oil (high-SAPS).

A GF-5 or D1G2 oil is a low HTHS oil.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Castrol Edge 10W30 A5/B5 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 [Re: yowps3] #5134816
06/15/19 10:49 AM
06/15/19 10:49 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 11,355
1/2 hr N.E. of Detroit
Triple_Se7en Offline
Triple_Se7en  Offline

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 11,355
1/2 hr N.E. of Detroit
So why are all the oil companies pushing low Calcium and high Magnesium oils these days for GDI / TGDI / lspi Engines. Wait - it's because we use thin oil in this country. Check all the owners manuals in the past decade for verification of that.

So find out what 0W16 / 0W20 / 5W20 / 5W30 oils have a good amount of ZDDP and problem solved. Then be sure to check the labels of these oils, for another verification that says SN Plus and Dexos1Gen2.

I side with the automakers USA specs. Those are Dexos/SN Plus currently. Most-all prior owners manuals have older specs than what's current. But store shelves will catch-up with new specs in little time thereafter.

You can side with high ZDDP in your GDI / TGDI / lspi machines. I like my chances of lower maintenance better than yours, using the latest specs intended for USA vehicles / USA fuel..

Last edited by Triple_Se7en; 06/15/19 10:51 AM.

19 Hyundai SantaFe 2.4GDI Castrol Edge 5w30 / NAPA Mann-Hummel filter / 6oz Liqui-Moly Treatment
04 Colorado 3.5 Castrol Edge 0W40 Euro & K&N filter
03 Malibu 3.1 QS / Valv Syn 5w30 mix Fram EG filter
Re: SN-Plus VS Dexos1-GEN2 [Re: Corollaman] #5135067
06/15/19 04:01 PM
06/15/19 04:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 197
California
Direct_Rejection Offline
Direct_Rejection  Offline

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 197
California
Originally Posted by Corollaman
Originally Posted by Direct_Rejection
Thank you Solarent for the prompt link to this vital podcast.

From Part I...
SN+/D1G2 >> SN/D1/G1.
It is eye opening to learn how important the changes are for insurance against LSPI.

From Part II...
The culprit is the combination of small amounts of motor oil, with unburned fuel mixed in, in the crevice volume (between the first ringland and the top piston ring,) along with piston deposits.
LSPI is complex, as stated, but there is also greater specificity here.

It sure sounds like there is a direct correlation between fuel dilution and LSPI.
My maintenance plan with a boosted GDI engine would surely involve the cheapest SN+ oil, Chevron Supreme comes to mind, and OCIs which are quite short, 3k miles !!
Also, I glean that recommended viscosity should be used over going thicker and extending OCis. JMO.

I'm using Chevron Supreme 5w30 SN+ and doing short oil changes (4,000 miles) in my 2016 Fusion 2.0, with a Motorcraft oil filter it's like $17 total.


Nice !
A vastly overlooked motor oil.
Chevron Supreme
SN+.
Hydrocracked.
Synthetic Blend.
Turbo rated.
$2.27/qt.


2018 Tacoma 2.7L
EDGE HM 0W20
@ 131k miles
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