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Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: GaryPoe] #5109517 05/19/19 05:49 PM
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Some engines wear badly without regard to oil used while some like the 2.2 pushrod four in your Blazer had no power to begin with.
Some engines are simply bad designs from the start.
Deposits are a problem in that high NOACK oils can lead to accumulations of carbon around the rings, leading to stuck rings and then very high oil consumption.
This is a serious issue.
If your F350 "ran like a top" after 225K, how did you determine that it was "worn out"?
No oil will overcome the inbuilt engineering compromises that lead to excessive wear that are inherent to any given engine.


18 Accord Hybrid 20K HGMO 0W-20
17 Forester 30K VME 0W-20
12 Accord LX 115K SSO 0W-20
09 Forester 119K M1HM 5W-30
96 Accord LX 104K T5 10W-30
95 318i
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: Gokhan] #5109551 05/19/19 06:32 PM
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Let me clarify...
The f350 didnt use any oil, gas milage was always consistant at 8.2mpg, it had valve raddle going uphill on the interstate. It always shifted down to 4th and sometimes 3rd to get to the 4k rpm power band to get it up and over. I started noticing when it would downshift to 3rd to get up and over it took longer and sometimes would turn cruze control off because it wouldnt get up the speed fast enough. Overtaking other vehicles i started having to floor it before lane changes to pass because it didnt have the power to get up to normal driving speeds fast enough which made it dang sketchy changing lanes in front of another car that was driving at normal speeds. Driving this truck for 7 years 365 days a year and 225k miles under my butt sitting in it, i know for fact and without a doubt it was worn out. But it always started, and sounded good and it still ran with no issues.


2014 F150 STX 4x4 Sport, Super Cab 5.0L Coyote, OZ Omega Tuned, Leveled with 35" BFG TKO2, Banks Power Monster exhaust, jlt oil seperator 5w20 PPPP, Motorcraft fl-500-s
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: fdcg27] #5109624 05/19/19 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by fdcg27
... No oil will overcome the inbuilt engineering compromises that lead to excessive wear that are inherent to any given engine.
Also, no oil, no matter how much you obsess about its specifications, will overcome the effects of inadequate air filtration. Allowing an engine to inhale dust is a sure-fire way to wear it out.

Last edited by CR94; 05/19/19 08:03 PM.

2011 Toyota Prius now at 109K
1981 Mazda GLC (323) retired at 606K
1972 Subaru DL retired at 190K
1954 Chevrolet retired at 121K
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: Gokhan] #5109936 05/20/19 07:20 AM
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Agreed. I check the air filter usually when i check oil. It doesnt get that bad in the summer, but in the winter when the salt is flying, the fine salt dust is like a low hovering cloud on the interstates. The work truck gets one every other oil change needed or not i dont pay for it.


2014 F150 STX 4x4 Sport, Super Cab 5.0L Coyote, OZ Omega Tuned, Leveled with 35" BFG TKO2, Banks Power Monster exhaust, jlt oil seperator 5w20 PPPP, Motorcraft fl-500-s
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: Gokhan] #5110462 05/20/19 05:02 PM
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Gokhan Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Gokhan
Note that the actual formula is:

HTHSV = {base-oil dynamic viscosity} * {1 + [(VII viscosity-boost factor) * (VII content)]} * {1 - [(VII temporary-shear factor) * (VII content)]}

VII viscosity-boost factor = 13.7
VII temporary-shear factor = 2.0

The numbers are for OCP VII, which is by far the most common VII type, as it is far better in passing the engine- and turbocharger-deposits tests.

This formula gives you the exact numbers in my table.

It just occurred to me that I could also calculate the base-oil viscosity index (base-oil VI), which tells us about the base-oil quality, as the higher the base-oil viscosity index, the higher the base-oil quality is!

Calculating the base-oil viscosity index is very simple. First, calculate the base-oil KV40 and base-oil KV100 using the VII content from the table as follows:

{base-oil KV40} = {KV40} / {1 + [(VII viscosity-boost factor) * (VII content)]}
{base-oil KV100} = {KV100} / {1 + [(VII viscosity-boost factor) * (VII content)]}

VII viscosity-boost factor = 13.7
(Enter the VII content as a fraction: 1% = 0.01.)

Then, plug in the base-oil KV40 and base-oil KV100 into the Widman viscosity-index calculator and you have the base-oil viscosity index (base-oil VI)!

https://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/calc-visc-index.html

The latest table of the base-oil viscosity and VII content:

Estimated base-oil dynamic viscosit... improver (VII) content of selected oils

[Linked Image]


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 4,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: Gokhan] #5113868 05/23/19 06:14 PM
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The base-oil viscosity and viscosity-index improver (VII) table has just got major enhancements!

Now, I have added three columns to the table for the base-oil kinematic viscosity at 40 C (BO KV40), base-oil kinematic viscosity at 100 C (BO KV100), and base-oil viscosity index (BO VI).

These are typical viscosity indexes for the common base stocks:

BO VI (base-oil viscosity index) = 80 - 119 (Group I/II), 120 - 129 (Group III), 126 - 139 (PAO), 130 - 150 (GTL/Group III+++), 74 - 105 (AN), 130 - 136 (POE)

You can now do at least three things:

(1) You can get an idea on the base-oil composition of a given oil by calculating the base-oil viscosity index (BO VI) using the density, KV40, KV100, and HTHSV values from the PDS.

(2) By assuming on the base-oil composition and a value for the base-oil viscosity index (BO VI), you can calculate the HTHSV.

(3) Calculate the VII content and dynamic base-oil viscosity at 150 C (BO DV150 = HTFSV).

The calculated base-oil viscosity index (BO VI) for most oils are within the range one would expect from the marketed, MSDS-specified, or speculated compositions of the oils. However, Mobil 1 High-Mileage (M1 HM) oils are a peculiar case with the base-oil viscosity index (BO VI) coming out of the calculator much lower than one would naïvely expect.

A possible explanation of this M1 HM anomaly is that M1 HM base oils contain a very high amount of alkylated naphthalene (AN) base stocks. 4.7 cST AN base stock (Synesstic 5) has VI = 74 and 12.4 cSt AN base stock (Synesstic 12) has VI = 105. These would lower the base-oil viscosity index (BO VI) substantially. We already knew that all Mobil 1 oils except the Euro (FS and ESP) flavors contained AN base stocks and the Euro (FS and ESP) flavors contained POE base stocks. The results of the calculator are suggesting that the amount of the AN base stocks in the M1 HM oils are much higher than in other M1 oils.

In fact, AN base stocks are used as seal swellers and engine-deposit cleaners, which are therefore very suitable for high-mileage oils:

Information by TRiiSO on Exxon Mobil Synesstic AN base stocks

It looks like the base-oil viscosity and VII calculator has discovered something that was previously unknown to everyone -- namely the generous use of the AN base stocks in the M1 HM oils!

Enjoy the latest table. You can download the Google Sheet if you like. Make sure to read the notes at the bottom.

Last but not least, two caveats:

(1) The calculator assumes olefin copolymer (OCP) VII, which is by far most popular in modern oils because of its resistance to form engine and turbocharger deposits and sludge. It wouldn't work with other types of VII such as star/Asteric.

(2) The calculation is only as good as the input data provided. It is especially sensitive to HTHSV input data and some manufacturers are not good at reporting accurate values for it.

With that said, here is the link to the Google Sheet and an image of the table. It shouldn't be used as a rating of the oils but rather to understand their base-oil and VII composition for a more informed oil selection:

Estimated base-oil dynamic viscosit... improver (VII) content of selected oils

[Linked Image]


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 4,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: Gokhan] #5113871 05/23/19 06:16 PM
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Gokhan Offline OP
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The base-oil viscosity and viscosity-index improver (VII) table has just got major enhancements!

Now, I have added three columns to the table for the base-oil kinematic viscosity at 40 C (BO KV40), base-oil kinematic viscosity at 100 C (BO KV100), and base-oil viscosity index (BO VI).

These are typical viscosity indexes for the common base stocks:

BO VI (base-oil viscosity index) = 80 - 119 (Group I/II), 120 - 129 (Group III), 126 - 139 (PAO), 130 - 150 (GTL/Group III+++), 74 - 105 (AN), 130 - 136 (POE)

You can now do at least three things:

(1) You can get an idea on the base-oil composition of a given oil by calculating the base-oil viscosity index (BO VI) using the density, KV40, KV100, and HTHSV values from the PDS.

(2) By assuming on the base-oil composition and a value for the base-oil viscosity index (BO VI), you can calculate the HTHSV.

(3) Calculate the VII content and dynamic base-oil viscosity at 150 C (BO DV150 = HTFSV).

The calculated base-oil viscosity index (BO VI) for most oils are within the range one would expect from the marketed, MSDS-specified, or speculated compositions of the oils. However, Mobil 1 High-Mileage (M1 HM) oils are a peculiar case with the base-oil viscosity index (BO VI) coming out of the calculator much lower than one would naïvely expect.

A possible explanation of this M1 HM anomaly is that M1 HM base oils contain a very high amount of alkylated naphthalene (AN) base stocks. 4.7 cST AN base stock (Synesstic 5) has VI = 74 and 12.4 cSt AN base stock (Synesstic 12) has VI = 105. These would lower the base-oil viscosity index (BO VI) substantially. We already knew that all Mobil 1 oils except the Euro (FS and ESP) flavors contained AN base stocks and the Euro (FS and ESP) flavors contained POE base stocks. The results of the calculator are suggesting that the amount of the AN base stocks in the M1 HM oils are much higher than in other M1 oils.

In fact, AN base stocks are used as seal swellers and engine-deposit cleaners, which are therefore very suitable for high-mileage oils:

Information by TRiiSO on Exxon Mobil Synesstic AN base stocks

It looks like the base-oil viscosity and VII calculator has discovered something that was previously unknown to everyone -- namely the generous use of the AN base stocks in the M1 HM oils!

Enjoy the latest table. You can download the Google Sheet if you like. Make sure to read the notes at the bottom.

Last but not least, two caveats:

(1) The calculator assumes olefin copolymer (OCP) VII, which is by far most popular in modern oils because of its resistance to form engine and turbocharger deposits and sludge. It wouldn't work with other types of VII such as star/Asteric.

(2) The calculation is only as good as the input data provided. It is especially sensitive to HTHSV input data and some manufacturers are not good at reporting accurate values for it.

With that said, here is the link to the Google Sheet and an image of the table. It shouldn't be used as a rating of the oils but rather to understand their base-oil and VII composition for a more informed oil selection:

Estimated base-oil dynamic viscosit... improver (VII) content of selected oils

[Linked Image]


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 4,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: Gokhan] #5133403 06/13/19 04:16 PM
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Gokhan Offline OP
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I set the calibration parameter to 10.5/2 (older value was 13.7/2) after comparing it against actual test oils.

Here is the theory behind:

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

The average error in HTFS for different VII types is only 6%.

However, I didn't study the error in ASTM D341 and density extrapolation, as the paper had the dynamic-viscosity values directly but not the density values.

[Linked Image]


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 4,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: Gokhan] #5133467 06/13/19 05:33 PM
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Here is the latest table with the calibration constant set to 10.5 after calibrating it against the test oils in the shear-thinning paper by Hugh Spikes et al.

HTFS = BO DV150 = base oil + fully sheared DI + VII solvent viscosity @ 150 °C (full temporary shear of the oil, VII polymer has no effect on viscosity)

Note that I didn't fill in the base-oil viscosity index (BO VI) values because they could be inaccurate. However, you can easily calculate them using the BO KV40 and BO KV100 in the Widman viscosity-index calculator.

You can download the Excel sheet here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oIYJP_5lgdt9l-_5n_ftKL5ScaaeY0MErFRothajZos/edit?usp=sharing

[Linked Image]


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 4,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: Gokhan] #5140569 06/21/19 11:22 PM
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Gokhan Offline OP
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I will explain how to calculate the HTFS (base-oil viscosity at 150 °C) using an example.

You need to know:

density15.6 (density @ 15.6 °C)
KV40 (kinematic viscosity at 40 °C)
KV100 (kinematic viscosity at 100 °C)
HTHS viscosity @ 150 °C

You intend to calculate:

HTFS viscosity @ 150 °C = (viscosity of the base oil and additives but without the VII boost @ 150 °C = viscosity under full shear at 150 °C)

Example:

Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS

density15.6 = 0.839 g/mL
KV40 = 44.90 cSt
KV100 = 8.60 cSt
HTHS = 2.70 cP

(values taken from the product data sheet)

Step 1:

Go to the Widman operational kinematic-viscosity calculator that employs ASTM D341 and calculate KV150 from KV40 and KV100:

https://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Operational.html

KV150 = 3.85 cSt (calculated by the Widman ASTM D341 calculator)

Step 2:

Input the density15.6, KV150 and HTHS150 into the Excel sheet (or Google sheet) linked above.

The sheet will calculate HTFS viscosity = BO DV150 (base-oil dynamic viscosity at 150 °C)

HTFS = 2.09 cP (calculated by the Excel sheet)

That's it!

Don't forget that the HTFS value is an estimate.

Note that the Excel sheet extrapolates the density from 15.6 °C to 150 ° by multiplying by 0.905.

The Excel sheet also calculates the base-oil (BO) KV40 and BO KV100, from which you can calculate the BO viscosity index (VI) using a VI calculator. However, these numbers are often not accurate and use them cautiously. Here is the Widman VI calculator:

https://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/calc-visc-index.html

Now that you have HTFS = BO DV150, what do you do with it?

Higher HTFS will help reduce the valvetrain, timing-chain, piston-ring, and cylinder-liner wear, as these parts experience ultrahigh shear rates, at which HTFS is the applicable viscosity. Higher HTFS along with higher HTHS may also help reduce the bearing wear, as bearings can experience somewhat higher shear rates than at which HTHS is measured (1,000,000 1/second) as well.

On the downside for a given HTHS viscosity, higher HTFS viscosity will make the fuel economy worse, as expected from a thicker oil over a wider shear-rate range.


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 4,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: Gokhan] #5140624 06/22/19 02:33 AM
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Gokhan,
I've received a PM from a member asking how to calculate the HTHS of a mix...I use the Widman calculator, even though it's dynamic rather than kinematic...it's probably close enough for Government work. We've seen a couple of mixes that didn't quite marry up KV100 wise with the calculated figures.


But in that PM conversation, I thought of your calculator, and how valuable it would be to predicting the viscometrics of a mix (I refuse to use the word blend).

In theory, your calculator should be able to identify the base oil viscosities for the two oils, and the impact of the VMs on them...then mix the base oils, using well known relationships...then re-introduce the viscosity modifiers, and get back toe the actual KV100s and HTHS.

Would be great if you could demonstrate it firstly with the blend guide...and I'll try to get the guy's proposed mix for you to work on.


If it's the truth....it can handle the pressure !!!
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: Gokhan] #5140982 06/22/19 01:32 PM
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Gokhan Offline OP
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Hi Shannow,

My calculator needs these: density, KV150, and HTHS.

In order to calculate a mix, say CATERHAM blend, I would do this:

(1) Use my calculator to find the VII contents for the two oils

(2) Calculate the weighted average of the VII contents

(3) Calculate the weighted average of the density

(4) Use the Widman mixing calculator to calculate the KV40 and KV100 of the mix
https://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Mixtures.html

(5) Use the Widman operational kinematic viscosity calculator to calculate the KV150 of the mix from the KV40 and KV100 of the mix
https://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Operational.html

(6) Use my calculator to adjust the HTHS manually until the VII content of the mix agrees with the weighted average VII content

Here is an example:

50% Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 (HTHS = 3.6 cP) and 50% Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 (HTHS = 2.7 cP)
density_mix = 0.8425 g/mL
VII_mix = 5.77%
KV40_mix = 56.15 cSt
KV100_mix = 10.49 cSt
KV150_mix = 4.61 cSt

HTHSV_mix (calculator output) = 3.11 cP

Note that this is an estimate only, as we don't know the exact VII types and exact values of the viscosity boost/shear (10.5/2 = 5.25 used in the calculator).

So, it's not too far from the simple weighted average of the HTHS values, which is 3.15 cP.

The example is in the bottom row:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gnOrQxsbymULx1s6_uBQi8zNHfJXg7lwwQpwzLSIWQI/edit?usp=sharing


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 4,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: Gokhan] #5141014 06/22/19 02:20 PM
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It just occurred to me that calculating the VII content involves using the shear-rate constant s (~ 2.0) separately, which is prone to more error than using the boost/shear (b/s ~ 5.25) together, which is used for HTFS = BO DV150. That's because the variation of b/s is smaller than the individual variations of b and s with the VII type.

So, instead of looking at the VII content, I would rather look at the HTFS = BO DV150, which is more accurate. In fact, that's the only thing my calculator really attempts to estimate. The VII content is more of an intermediate result in arbitrary units.

For the example I gave, using the Widman mixing calculator,

HTFS_mix = BO DV150_mix = 2.22 cP

This gives HTHS_mix = 3.124 cP.

It brings it even closer to the simple weighted average, which is 3.15 cP.

Let me know what you get for your mix.


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 4,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
Re: HTFSV: High-temperature, full-shear viscosity [Re: Gokhan] #5141467 06/23/19 06:47 AM
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OK, I have updated my approach to calculate the HTHS of the mix/blend so that the VII content is not used for the reasons stated in the above post.

Here are the new steps:

My calculator needs these three things to work: density, KV150, and HTHS.

Note that HTFS = BO DV150 refers to the base-oil dynamic viscosity (including the sheared additives) at 150 °C.

Also note that DV150 = HTLS is the low-shear viscosity at 150 °C.

In order to calculate HTHS of a mix/blend, say CATERHAM blend, I would do this:

(1) Use my calculator to find the (a) DV150 (HTLS) and (b) HTFS (BO DV150) for the two oils. In other words find the low-shear and full-shear viscosities of the two oils.

(2) Use my viscosity-calculator (link) to find the (a) DV150 (HTLS) and (b) HTFS (BO DV150) for the mix.

(3) Calculate the density of the mix, which is the weighted average of the two densities.

(4) Divide the DV150 of the mix by the density of the mix. Then divide the resultant number by 0.905. This is the KV150 of the mix.

(4) Enter the density of the mix, KV150 of the mix, and a guess for the HTHS of the mix in my calculator. Check that DV150 agrees with the value you calculated in Step 2; otherwise, fix the error.

(5) Adjust the HTHS manually until the HTFS (BO DV150) of the mix agrees with the value you calculated in Step 2. This is my calculator's HTHS estimate for the mix.

Here is an example:

50% Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 (HTHS = 3.6 cP) and 50% Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 (HTHS = 2.7 cP)
density_mix = 0.8425 g/mL
DV150_mix = 3.5269 cP
HTFS (BO DV150)_mix = 2.2162 cP
KV150_mix = 4.6257 cSt

HTHSV_mix (my calculator's output) = 3.104 cP

Note that this is an estimate only, as we don't know the exact VII types and exact values of the viscosity boost/shear (10.5/2 = 5.25 used in the calculator).

So, it's not too far from the simple weighted average of the HTHS values, which is 3.15 cP.

The example is in the bottom row:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gnOrQxsbymULx1s6_uBQi8zNHfJXg7lwwQpwzLSIWQI/edit?usp=sharing


2020 Toyota Prius Prime XLE plug-in hybrid, 2ZR-FXE engine, ~ 4,000 mi
TGMO 0W-16 SN/RC Japan
OEM spin-on oil filter Japan
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