Average new car payment $554

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by Ws6
I just buy land in desirable areas. Last purchase was for $55k, and sold it for $70k 3 years later, while enjoying hiking shooting and camping on it. They dont make any more land. They keep making people. Land is "real" property/product. Not some ticker board or electronic value.


Was that 15k your net return or did you also have fees and other expenses associated with the purchase and the sale? For mutual funds, there's no fees for purchase or sale. Anyway, my basic math says that's about a 27% return or about 9% or thereabouts per year vs the 3 year on the Fidelity S&P at about 11.71.

People move away too, look at Detroit. In any event, real estate is also good, I'm also diversified in owning rental property.

After it was all said and done I pocketed something like $10k as I recall. 20%+- return after 3 years, of something I enjoyed the use of during that time, so around 6% and change per year, and THAT land wasnt even in the best area within my area. It was half of a mountain side with very little buildable space and no development done. 34 acres. Had I bought 1/3 acre lots in a better area...

 

[Mr Nice]

How much are the property taxes on 34 acres ?

Good that you managed your money wisely...

 

[Win]

Originally Posted by Mr Nice
How much are the property taxes on 34 acres


Depends on the property. On junk property, not much, but if it has standing timber, that can be taxed.

I had about 36 acres across the line in OK, had a rent house, built a 2150' grass airstrip on it, couple of fishing ponds, city water and sewer; bought it cheap and I paid about $1K / annum on it.

Sold it to an Indian tribe. It is now a resort / casino.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by Mr Nice
How much are the property taxes on 34 acres ?

Good that you managed your money wisely...

It actually varied a lot in that 3 years. 300ish the first year. 900ish the second. The next year 300ish or so. It was weird.

My current house and @13 acres run me 1k a year, roughly.

 

[Vaca]

Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by Vaca
Originally Posted by Wolf359
I wouldn't do a fixed 2.2% CD, I'd just stick it in the stock market and hope that it hits the averages of around 10%. Plus in some years when you get some good stock market gains, you take some out and pay cash for a car as a diversification method...


Where can I get that 10% average?

FXAIX. Fidelity 500 index fund. 16.18% year to date return, 10 year is 13.93% (partly because at this point 2008 drops off the 10 year return), life of fund is 10.10%. Last year was a dog for the S&P 500 though, only 3.77%.


Good point, the good old S&P 500 Index. I have a good allocation of my retirement savings in that exact Fidelity fund!

I'm afraid of the high multiples in the market right now and am keeping a good portion in cash. But, I suck at timing the market so maybe I should just give it up

(that'll be the day). Glad my employer just puts new money into my current plan every month so I'm forced to dollar cost average at least part.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted by Vaca
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by Vaca
Originally Posted by Wolf359
I wouldn't do a fixed 2.2% CD, I'd just stick it in the stock market and hope that it hits the averages of around 10%. Plus in some years when you get some good stock market gains, you take some out and pay cash for a car as a diversification method...


Where can I get that 10% average?

FXAIX. Fidelity 500 index fund. 16.18% year to date return, 10 year is 13.93% (partly because at this point 2008 drops off the 10 year return), life of fund is 10.10%. Last year was a dog for the S&P 500 though, only 3.77%.


Good point, the good old S&P 500 Index. I have a good allocation of my retirement savings in that exact Fidelity fund!

I'm afraid of the high multiples in the market right now and am keeping a good portion in cash. But, I suck at timing the market so maybe I should just give it up

(that'll be the day). Glad my employer just puts new money into my current plan every month so I'm forced to dollar cost average at least part.



I just remember 2 years ago a friend of mine was afraid that it was too high so he got out. Of course he did miss out on the small return last year, but it's up over 16% this year. This also happened back in 1996, people said it was too high, then it kept going on up for 4 more years before the crash in 2000. But when it crashed in 2000, it never crashed back to 1996 levels.

 

[Vaca]

Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by Vaca
Originally Posted by Wolf359

I wouldn't do a fixed 2.2% CD, I'd just stick it in the stock market and hope that it hits the averages of around 10%. Plus in some years when you get some good stock market gains, you take some out and pay cash for a car as a diversification method...





I just remember 2 years ago a friend of mine was afraid that it was too high so he got out. Of course he did miss out on the small return last year, but it's up over 16% this year. This also happened back in 1996, people said it was too high, then it kept going on up for 4 more years before the crash in 2000. But when it crashed in 2000, it never crashed back to 1996 levels.


The timing is critical. Really amazing - since you quoted that the SP500 has a 10-year, ytd, life of fund (FXAIX), all over 10% - but the 20-year return of the SP500 is only around around 4.1% per year!

current SP500 is ~2900, June 1999 SP50 was ~1300 so 2900/1300 = 2.23

and (2.23)^(1/20) - 1 = ~ 4.1% annual growth rate

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted by Vaca
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by Vaca
Originally Posted by Wolf359

I wouldn't do a fixed 2.2% CD, I'd just stick it in the stock market and hope that it hits the averages of around 10%. Plus in some years when you get some good stock market gains, you take some out and pay cash for a car as a diversification method...





I just remember 2 years ago a friend of mine was afraid that it was too high so he got out. Of course he did miss out on the small return last year, but it's up over 16% this year. This also happened back in 1996, people said it was too high, then it kept going on up for 4 more years before the crash in 2000. But when it crashed in 2000, it never crashed back to 1996 levels.


The timing is critical. Really amazing - since you quoted that the SP500 has a 10-year, ytd, life of fund (FXAIX), all over 10% - but the 20-year return of the SP500 is only around around 4.1% per year!

current SP500 is ~2900, June 1999 SP50 was ~1300 so 2900/1300 = 2.23

and (2.23)^(1/20) - 1 = ~ 4.1% annual growth rate



That's referred to as the lost decade when you have 2000 and 2008 in there. Two very bad years. Plus I don't think your method might be accurate as it loses dividends and capital gains distributions. You're just basically cherry picking a range. For the life of the fund which started in 1988, the total return is 10.25%. The 90's were also roaring.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted by Vaca
The timing is critical. Really amazing - since you quoted that the SP500 has a 10-year, ytd, life of fund (FXAIX), all over 10% - but the 20-year return of the SP500 is only around around 4.1% per year!

current SP500 is ~2900, June 1999 SP50 was ~1300 so 2900/1300 = 2.23

and (2.23)^(1/20) - 1 = ~ 4.1% annual growth rate



Oh, here's a better calculator, over the last 20 years, 3.764%, but with dividends reinvested, it's 5.677%. But if you use the last 10 or last 30, you get different numbers. I think many people who lived through the depression thought it was going to happen again, but it didn't.

https://dqydj.com/sp-500-return-calculator/

 

[Vaca]

Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by Vaca
The timing is critical. Really amazing - since you quoted that the SP500 has a 10-year, ytd, life of fund (FXAIX), all over 10% - but the 20-year return of the SP500 is only around around 4.1% per year!

current SP500 is ~2900, June 1999 SP50 was ~1300 so 2900/1300 = 2.23

and (2.23)^(1/20) - 1 = ~ 4.1% annual growth rate



Oh, here's a better calculator, over the last 20 years, 3.764%, but with dividends reinvested, it's 5.677%. But if you use the last 10 or last 30, you get different numbers. I think many people who lived through the depression thought it was going to happen again, but it didn't.

https://dqydj.com/sp-500-return-calculator/


Yes, with dividends, 5.7% for last 20 years. Wish we could all rely on 10% in the future, but maybe I'm just being pessimistic. Heck, if we could, I bet a lot more people would be able to retire on their 401ks. Most retirement plans put in a 5 or 6% annual withdrawal assumption into their income calcs.

That makes an enormous difference in savings goals. For instance, if you are looking for 50,000 per year from your 401k, you'd only need 500,000 vs. closer to a million.

Maybe more people ought to be putting more into their savings rather than fancy cars and trucks many don't need or can really afford.

 

[philipp10]

Originally Posted by Ws6
I just buy land in desirable areas. Last purchase was for $55k, and sold it for $70k 3 years later, while enjoying hiking shooting and camping on it. They dont make any more land. They keep making people. Land is "real" property/product. Not some ticker board or electronic value.

nothing against land but to call the stock market "some ticker board or electronic value" is silly. Stocks are an ownership in a business. And they don't just make profitable businesses out of thin air. They have should a place in everyone's retirement portfolio.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted by clinebarger


If you want to live in a Mobile Home, Or other "manufactured/pre-fab" junk? I would expand on that.....But, Someone probably has a story that trailer homes are great.


I love how the condescension just DRIPS off every word.

Quote
I'm glad others had luck with Septic & Well's......I didn't & it soured the whole concept for me! When I lived in Rendon TX......My well water smelled like sulfur & was so hard that it would stain clothing with filtering & water softening. I most certainly wouldn't drink it, Didn't really care for bathing in it either.

Trash disposal was another irritation for me, While the folks around me burned their trash.....I couldn't do that! Too many plastics & such. So I took my trash to work every other day & dumped in the dumpster. I could have rented a dumpster I guess.


My wife or I brought trash to the transfer station for years...I recall the dump permit was $20/year.

Quote
I love my city provided services, They give you Toter's for Trash & Recycling & I bought a Toter for grass & trimmings & all it cost me was the price of the bin & they dump it every week for free.
We also have monthly bulk pick-up, If I cut down a tree or have a old appliance.....Put it across the street & they dispose of it for you.

Water quality & taste is excellent in Fort Worth BTW, Granted I've seen/tasted some nasty city water before.....


I have never had palatable municipal water. After decades of drinking well water, the chlorine taste actually makes me gag.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted by supton
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
odular/Prefab (ie. panelized) come in many varieties. There are a few manufacturers in the Northeast which build modular homes that look just like they were stick built but with higher quality* whereas a typical modular home found in the Southwest has, aesthetically, more in common with a large double-wide.


I'm not surprised, all built to order I guess. I'm not sure what mobile home sales are like up here, I know I've seen a few trailer parks here and there, but I'm not sure just what sales are like. But I'd say, during the summer months it sure seems like I see a modular going down the road every other day. Sales of those must be brisk. I still don't get their economics, most of them seem to be built down in PA and shipped up here.

We thought about doing a two box ranch (27x54 I think) but a friend (a GC) thought he could do a stick build on our land while leaving our house standing, so we've been going down that path for a house replacement.

What's wrong with the house you have?

 

[supton]

Originally Posted by Jarlaxle

What's wrong with the house you have?

70 year old camp built cheaply at the time, but updated over the years, but not too well. Right now I have a roof that is slowly collapsing and it's just not worth fixing, 700 square feet is too small. This spring I found a leak in the 10 year old roof, and I suspect it needs a new roof due to the waves in the roof (I suspect heavy rot, and it sure smells like mold now when the sun comes out after a rain).

Sometimes they're just not worth fixing up--sometimes it's just best to start over.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by philipp10
Originally Posted by Ws6
I just buy land in desirable areas. Last purchase was for $55k, and sold it for $70k 3 years later, while enjoying hiking shooting and camping on it. They dont make any more land. They keep making people. Land is "real" property/product. Not some ticker board or electronic value.

nothing against land but to call the stock market "some ticker board or electronic value" is silly. Stocks are an ownership in a business. And they don't just make profitable businesses out of thin air. They have should a place in everyone's retirement portfolio.

I understand. I just don't think much of many well earning industries, so I'd rather not invest in them. It's more of a concept thing. An example would be Under Armor. They make gucci clothing. They aren't important or necessary. Ephemeral. Land is tangible and always will be relevant.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by philipp10
Originally Posted by Ws6
I just buy land in desirable areas. Last purchase was for $55k, and sold it for $70k 3 years later, while enjoying hiking shooting and camping on it. They dont make any more land. They keep making people. Land is "real" property/product. Not some ticker board or electronic value.

nothing against land but to call the stock market "some ticker board or electronic value" is silly. Stocks are an ownership in a business. And they don't just make profitable businesses out of thin air. They have should a place in everyone's retirement portfolio.

I understand. I just don't think much of many well earning industries, so I'd rather not invest in them. It's more of a concept thing. An example would be Under Armor. They make gucci clothing. They aren't important or necessary. Ephemeral. Land is tangible and always will be relevant.


It's that kind of thinking that cost you the gains made in the stock market over the decade or so. Of course diversification is also important too so real estate can also be a good investment vehicle.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted by philipp10
... nothing against land but to call the stock market "some ticker board or electronic value" is silly. Stocks are an ownership in a business. And they don't just make profitable businesses out of thin air. They have should a place in everyone's retirement portfolio.


It may be harsh to call securities ticker board or electronic values, but it is not that far from the mark.

Folks who buy precious metals ( for some reason ) rarely possess their investment. Some one else possesses it for them. They get a piece of paper that says they own it. Maybe the actual item exists. Maybe it doesn't. If you wanted to take a look at your lump of platinum, where do you go?

People who buy publicly traded securities likely have never actually seen a security, much less a security that they own. They exist only as line items on a statement that comes in at periodic intervals from someone who may or may not have the actual certificates. The share certificates, if they exist at all, are physically held by someone else. Hopefully the corporate secretary has the share ownership recorded correctly on the share ledger as a backup. has anyone called their broker and asked to see their share certificates? Deeds are recorded at relevant courthouses and the physical specimens are in my safe.

An Amazon share holder may own a fractional share of Bezos' office, but I'm pretty sure his people will frog march the fractional owner out the door long before he / she gets within 100 yds of it. A fractional share of ownership in someone else's business has no real practical value, and is pretty much useless except to sell it to someone else, if there is a buyer. Hopefully they will at least pay a dividend, not that the fractional owner has much say in that. We all know big companies never cheat on their financials to make things look better than they really are ...

OTOH, a land owner can go walk out on any of his / her properties tonight - he/she can grab a clod of dirt and crumble it in his hand, exclude everyone else from it, plant potatoes, build a building, collect the rent, buy and sell it without having to go through a third party, or just dump a double wide on it and forget about it until it better suits his/her purpose. It's tangible;

it's called real property for a reason. Everything else isn't. The significant downside is that it is in plain view, the lowest of low hanging fruit, and easy to tax, which basically amounts to a de facto annual wealth tax. Worse, people that don't even own any get to vote on how much you will be taxed on it.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by philipp10
Originally Posted by Ws6
I just buy land in desirable areas. Last purchase was for $55k, and sold it for $70k 3 years later, while enjoying hiking shooting and camping on it. They dont make any more land. They keep making people. Land is "real" property/product. Not some ticker board or electronic value.

nothing against land but to call the stock market "some ticker board or electronic value" is silly. Stocks are an ownership in a business. And they don't just make profitable businesses out of thin air. They have should a place in everyone's retirement portfolio.

I understand. I just don't think much of many well earning industries, so I'd rather not invest in them. It's more of a concept thing. An example would be Under Armor. They make gucci clothing. They aren't important or necessary. Ephemeral. Land is tangible and always will be relevant.


It's that kind of thinking that cost you the gains made in the stock market over the decade or so. Of course diversification is also important too so real estate can also be a good investment vehicle.

I dunno. I kindof just want to pay everything off and chill on minimal funding and so forth. I dont need a million dollars to retire unless a loaf of bread inflates to 20k.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by Win
Originally Posted by philipp10
... nothing against land but to call the stock market "some ticker board or electronic value" is silly. Stocks are an ownership in a business. And they don't just make profitable businesses out of thin air. They have should a place in everyone's retirement portfolio.


It may be harsh to call securities ticker board or electronic values, but it is not that far from the mark.

Folks who buy precious metals ( for some reason ) rarely possess their investment. Some one else possesses it for them. They get a piece of paper that says they own it. Maybe the actual item exists. Maybe it doesn't. If you wanted to take a look at your lump of platinum, where do you go?

People who buy publicly traded securities likely have never actually seen a security, much less a security that they own. They exist only as line items on a statement that comes in at periodic intervals from someone who may or may not have the actual certificates. The share certificates, if they exist at all, are physically held by someone else. Hopefully the corporate secretary has the share ownership recorded correctly on the share ledger as a backup. has anyone called their broker and asked to see their share certificates? Deeds are recorded at relevant courthouses and the physical specimens are in my safe.

An Amazon share holder may own a fractional share of Bezos' office, but I'm pretty sure his people will frog march the fractional owner out the door long before he / she gets within 100 yds of it. A fractional share of ownership in someone else's business has no real practical value, and is pretty much useless except to sell it to someone else, if there is a buyer. Hopefully they will at least pay a dividend, not that the fractional owner has much say in that. We all know big companies never cheat on their financials to make things look better than they really are ...

OTOH, a land owner can go walk out on any of his / her properties tonight - he/she can grab a clod of dirt and crumble it in his hand, exclude everyone else from it, plant potatoes, build a building, collect the rent, buy and sell it without having to go through a third party, or just dump a double wide on it and forget about it until it better suits his/her purpose. It's tangible;

it's called real property for a reason. Everything else isn't. The significant downside is that it is in plain view, the lowest of low hanging fruit, and easy to tax, which basically amounts to a de facto annual wealth tax. Worse, people that don't even own any get to vote on how much you will be taxed on it.







100% this. When [censored] gets real, only real [censored] matters. Its like desk jobs at large firms. It may pay well, but the employee is just a waste of skin in the harsh reality of life, if all they are competent at is their meaningless desk job.

Soldiers (people skilled at violence)
Healers (emt, nurse, doctor, dentist, hygienist, etc.etc.)
Builders (construction, electrician, on and on)
Producers (farmers, ranchers, raw goods, etc)

These are the sort of things with real value and staying power, even if all of the systems break down. Nothing will ever occur to make them irrelevant.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted by Ws6
These are the sort of things with real value and staying power, even if all of the systems break down. Nothing will ever occur to make them irrelevant.


Like I said earlier, this is the kind of thinking that gets you sub optimal returns. As there were people who felt the depression was going to happen again, there have always been people who though that the world was going to end or was going to the proverbial handbasket. Historically it hasn't happened in the last 200+ years since the revolutionary war. Maybe civil war if you were in the south as confederate money became worthless. But then again it's not like it had a long track record.

Also in theory when the system breaks down, ownership of land also goes away as the court houses also go away. In many revolutions or break downs in government, land is lost or taken by the winning side so saying it's the best in a bad situation isn't backed up by any history.

Fear can cause you to do things that aren't smart financially.