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Re: Average new car payment $554 [Re: AuthorEditor] #5132761
06/12/19 10:51 PM
06/12/19 10:51 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 378
USA
HowAboutThis Offline
HowAboutThis  Offline

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 378
USA
A Trowe fund I have has about a 0.68% ER and the similar Vanguard has about 0.2%. However, the Trowe beats it by a percent or two if you compare starting and ending points. The bigger deal is keeping your ER below at least 1. But smallest ER doesn't gurantee better return compared to similar funds. With that said, I'd typically go the route of smaller ER personally. Everything I personally do is researched a lot (whatever that means) and nothing over a 0.7 ER. Having seen some funds with ridiculous ERs I just laugh. People actually invest in them?!?

Last edited by HowAboutThis; 06/12/19 10:51 PM.
Re: Average new car payment $554 [Re: HowAboutThis] #5132767
06/12/19 10:58 PM
06/12/19 10:58 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 9,652
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline

Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 9,652
...
Originally Posted by HowAboutThis
A Trowe fund I have has about a 0.68% ER and the similar Vanguard has about 0.2%. However, the Trowe beats it by a percent or two if you compare starting and ending points. The bigger deal is keeping your ER below at least 1. But smallest ER doesn't gurantee better return compared to similar funds. With that said, I'd typically go the route of smaller ER personally. Everything I personally do is researched a lot (whatever that means) and nothing over a 0.7 ER. Having seen some funds with ridiculous ERs I just laugh. People actually invest in them?!?




It is up to the individual. I don’t worry about others investment choices.


2017 Mazda CX5
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Re: Average new car payment $554 [Re: AuthorEditor] #5132783
06/12/19 11:19 PM
06/12/19 11:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 616
NWA/SWMO
Ws6 Offline
Ws6  Offline

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 616
NWA/SWMO
I just buy land in desirable areas. Last purchase was for $55k, and sold it for $70k 3 years later, while enjoying hiking shooting and camping on it. They dont make any more land. They keep making people. Land is "real" property/product. Not some ticker board or electronic value.


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Re: Average new car payment $554 [Re: HowAboutThis] #5132784
06/12/19 11:23 PM
06/12/19 11:23 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 6,711
MA
Wolf359 Offline
Wolf359  Offline

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 6,711
MA
Originally Posted by HowAboutThis
A Trowe fund I have has about a 0.68% ER and the similar Vanguard has about 0.2%. However, the Trowe beats it by a percent or two if you compare starting and ending points. The bigger deal is keeping your ER below at least 1. But smallest ER doesn't gurantee better return compared to similar funds. With that said, I'd typically go the route of smaller ER personally. Everything I personally do is researched a lot (whatever that means) and nothing over a 0.7 ER. Having seen some funds with ridiculous ERs I just laugh. People actually invest in them?!?


Well I'm also in Fidelity contrafund, FCNTX, they have a .82 expense ratio, but they've beaten the Fidelity 500 index fund for the 3, 5 and 10 year period and is up more than the index this year so far. They did do worse last year though. I don't mind paying a higher expense ratio if it can perform. If it starts to underperform for a couple years, I guess I'll kick it to the curb then. It's been decent for me for these last few years.

Re: Average new car payment $554 [Re: Ws6] #5132786
06/12/19 11:32 PM
06/12/19 11:32 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 6,711
MA
Wolf359 Offline
Wolf359  Offline

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 6,711
MA
Originally Posted by Ws6
I just buy land in desirable areas. Last purchase was for $55k, and sold it for $70k 3 years later, while enjoying hiking shooting and camping on it. They dont make any more land. They keep making people. Land is "real" property/product. Not some ticker board or electronic value.


Was that 15k your net return or did you also have fees and other expenses associated with the purchase and the sale? For mutual funds, there's no fees for purchase or sale. Anyway, my basic math says that's about a 27% return or about 9% or thereabouts per year vs the 3 year on the Fidelity S&P at about 11.71.

People move away too, look at Detroit. In any event, real estate is also good, I'm also diversified in owning rental property.

Re: Average new car payment $554 [Re: Wolf359] #5132809
06/13/19 12:34 AM
06/13/19 12:34 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 616
NWA/SWMO
Ws6 Offline
Ws6  Offline

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 616
NWA/SWMO
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by Ws6
I just buy land in desirable areas. Last purchase was for $55k, and sold it for $70k 3 years later, while enjoying hiking shooting and camping on it. They dont make any more land. They keep making people. Land is "real" property/product. Not some ticker board or electronic value.


Was that 15k your net return or did you also have fees and other expenses associated with the purchase and the sale? For mutual funds, there's no fees for purchase or sale. Anyway, my basic math says that's about a 27% return or about 9% or thereabouts per year vs the 3 year on the Fidelity S&P at about 11.71.

People move away too, look at Detroit. In any event, real estate is also good, I'm also diversified in owning rental property.

After it was all said and done I pocketed something like $10k as I recall. 20%+- return after 3 years, of something I enjoyed the use of during that time, so around 6% and change per year, and THAT land wasnt even in the best area within my area. It was half of a mountain side with very little buildable space and no development done. 34 acres. Had I bought 1/3 acre lots in a better area...


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Re: Average new car payment $554 [Re: AuthorEditor] #5132931
06/13/19 07:26 AM
06/13/19 07:26 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,689
Central Florida
Mr Nice Offline
Mr Nice  Offline

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,689
Central Florida
How much are the property taxes on 34 acres ?

Good that you managed your money wisely...

Re: Average new car payment $554 [Re: Mr Nice] #5133089
06/13/19 11:01 AM
06/13/19 11:01 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,602
Arkansas
Win Offline
Win  Offline

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,602
Arkansas



Originally Posted by Mr Nice
How much are the property taxes on 34 acres


Depends on the property. On junk property, not much, but if it has standing timber, that can be taxed.

I had about 36 acres across the line in OK, had a rent house, built a 2150' grass airstrip on it, couple of fishing ponds, city water and sewer; bought it cheap and I paid about $1K / annum on it.

Sold it to an Indian tribe. It is now a resort / casino.


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Re: Average new car payment $554 [Re: Mr Nice] #5133157
06/13/19 12:24 PM
06/13/19 12:24 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 616
NWA/SWMO
Ws6 Offline
Ws6  Offline

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 616
NWA/SWMO
Originally Posted by Mr Nice
How much are the property taxes on 34 acres ?

Good that you managed your money wisely...

It actually varied a lot in that 3 years. 300ish the first year. 900ish the second. The next year 300ish or so. It was weird.

My current house and @13 acres run me 1k a year, roughly.

Last edited by Ws6; 06/13/19 12:25 PM.

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Re: Average new car payment $554 [Re: Wolf359] #5133249
06/13/19 02:14 PM
06/13/19 02:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 327
South Central PA
Vaca Offline
Vaca  Offline

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 327
South Central PA
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by Vaca
Originally Posted by Wolf359
I wouldn't do a fixed 2.2% CD, I'd just stick it in the stock market and hope that it hits the averages of around 10%. Plus in some years when you get some good stock market gains, you take some out and pay cash for a car as a diversification method...


Where can I get that 10% average? smile


FXAIX. Fidelity 500 index fund. 16.18% year to date return, 10 year is 13.93% (partly because at this point 2008 drops off the 10 year return), life of fund is 10.10%. Last year was a dog for the S&P 500 though, only 3.77%.


Good point, the good old S&P 500 Index. I have a good allocation of my retirement savings in that exact Fidelity fund!

I'm afraid of the high multiples in the market right now and am keeping a good portion in cash. But, I suck at timing the market so maybe I should just give it up smile (that'll be the day). Glad my employer just puts new money into my current plan every month so I'm forced to dollar cost average at least part.


Last edited by Vaca; 06/13/19 02:15 PM.
Re: Average new car payment $554 [Re: Vaca] #5133252
06/13/19 02:18 PM
06/13/19 02:18 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 6,711
MA
Wolf359 Offline
Wolf359  Offline

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 6,711
MA
Originally Posted by Vaca
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by Vaca
Originally Posted by Wolf359
I wouldn't do a fixed 2.2% CD, I'd just stick it in the stock market and hope that it hits the averages of around 10%. Plus in some years when you get some good stock market gains, you take some out and pay cash for a car as a diversification method...


Where can I get that 10% average? smile


FXAIX. Fidelity 500 index fund. 16.18% year to date return, 10 year is 13.93% (partly because at this point 2008 drops off the 10 year return), life of fund is 10.10%. Last year was a dog for the S&P 500 though, only 3.77%.


Good point, the good old S&P 500 Index. I have a good allocation of my retirement savings in that exact Fidelity fund!

I'm afraid of the high multiples in the market right now and am keeping a good portion in cash. But, I suck at timing the market so maybe I should just give it up smile (that'll be the day). Glad my employer just puts new money into my current plan every month so I'm forced to dollar cost average at least part.



I just remember 2 years ago a friend of mine was afraid that it was too high so he got out. Of course he did miss out on the small return last year, but it's up over 16% this year. This also happened back in 1996, people said it was too high, then it kept going on up for 4 more years before the crash in 2000. But when it crashed in 2000, it never crashed back to 1996 levels.

Re: Average new car payment $554 [Re: AuthorEditor] #5133260
06/13/19 02:36 PM
06/13/19 02:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 327
South Central PA
Vaca Offline
Vaca  Offline

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 327
South Central PA
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by Vaca
Originally Posted by Wolf359
[quote=Vaca][quote=Wolf359] I wouldn't do a fixed 2.2% CD, I'd just stick it in the stock market and hope that it hits the averages of around 10%. Plus in some years when you get some good stock market gains, you take some out and pay cash for a car as a diversification method...





I just remember 2 years ago a friend of mine was afraid that it was too high so he got out. Of course he did miss out on the small return last year, but it's up over 16% this year. This also happened back in 1996, people said it was too high, then it kept going on up for 4 more years before the crash in 2000. But when it crashed in 2000, it never crashed back to 1996 levels.


The timing is critical. Really amazing - since you quoted that the SP500 has a 10-year, ytd, life of fund (FXAIX), all over 10% - but the 20-year return of the SP500 is only around around 4.1% per year!

current SP500 is ~2900, June 1999 SP50 was ~1300 so 2900/1300 = 2.23

and (2.23)^(1/20) - 1 = ~ 4.1% annual growth rate

Re: Average new car payment $554 [Re: Vaca] #5133330
06/13/19 04:00 PM
06/13/19 04:00 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 6,711
MA
Wolf359 Offline
Wolf359  Offline

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 6,711
MA
Originally Posted by Vaca
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by Vaca
Originally Posted by Wolf359
[quote=Vaca][quote=Wolf359] I wouldn't do a fixed 2.2% CD, I'd just stick it in the stock market and hope that it hits the averages of around 10%. Plus in some years when you get some good stock market gains, you take some out and pay cash for a car as a diversification method...





I just remember 2 years ago a friend of mine was afraid that it was too high so he got out. Of course he did miss out on the small return last year, but it's up over 16% this year. This also happened back in 1996, people said it was too high, then it kept going on up for 4 more years before the crash in 2000. But when it crashed in 2000, it never crashed back to 1996 levels.


The timing is critical. Really amazing - since you quoted that the SP500 has a 10-year, ytd, life of fund (FXAIX), all over 10% - but the 20-year return of the SP500 is only around around 4.1% per year!

current SP500 is ~2900, June 1999 SP50 was ~1300 so 2900/1300 = 2.23

and (2.23)^(1/20) - 1 = ~ 4.1% annual growth rate



That's referred to as the lost decade when you have 2000 and 2008 in there. Two very bad years. Plus I don't think your method might be accurate as it loses dividends and capital gains distributions. You're just basically cherry picking a range. For the life of the fund which started in 1988, the total return is 10.25%. The 90's were also roaring.

Re: Average new car payment $554 [Re: Vaca] #5133717
06/13/19 11:36 PM
06/13/19 11:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 6,711
MA
Wolf359 Offline
Wolf359  Offline

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 6,711
MA
Originally Posted by Vaca
The timing is critical. Really amazing - since you quoted that the SP500 has a 10-year, ytd, life of fund (FXAIX), all over 10% - but the 20-year return of the SP500 is only around around 4.1% per year!

current SP500 is ~2900, June 1999 SP50 was ~1300 so 2900/1300 = 2.23

and (2.23)^(1/20) - 1 = ~ 4.1% annual growth rate



Oh, here's a better calculator, over the last 20 years, 3.764%, but with dividends reinvested, it's 5.677%. But if you use the last 10 or last 30, you get different numbers. I think many people who lived through the depression thought it was going to happen again, but it didn't.

https://dqydj.com/sp-500-return-calculator/

Re: Average new car payment $554 [Re: Wolf359] #5134241
06/14/19 05:10 PM
06/14/19 05:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 327
South Central PA
Vaca Offline
Vaca  Offline

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 327
South Central PA
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by Vaca
The timing is critical. Really amazing - since you quoted that the SP500 has a 10-year, ytd, life of fund (FXAIX), all over 10% - but the 20-year return of the SP500 is only around around 4.1% per year!

current SP500 is ~2900, June 1999 SP50 was ~1300 so 2900/1300 = 2.23

and (2.23)^(1/20) - 1 = ~ 4.1% annual growth rate



Oh, here's a better calculator, over the last 20 years, 3.764%, but with dividends reinvested, it's 5.677%. But if you use the last 10 or last 30, you get different numbers. I think many people who lived through the depression thought it was going to happen again, but it didn't.

https://dqydj.com/sp-500-return-calculator/


Yes, with dividends, 5.7% for last 20 years. Wish we could all rely on 10% in the future, but maybe I'm just being pessimistic. Heck, if we could, I bet a lot more people would be able to retire on their 401ks. Most retirement plans put in a 5 or 6% annual withdrawal assumption into their income calcs.

That makes an enormous difference in savings goals. For instance, if you are looking for 50,000 per year from your 401k, you'd only need 500,000 vs. closer to a million.

Maybe more people ought to be putting more into their savings rather than fancy cars and trucks many don't need or can really afford.:)

Last edited by Vaca; 06/14/19 05:14 PM.
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